X-Message-Number: 31627 From: Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 10:44:57 EDT Subject: comments re Havelock's message Dr. Havelock notes important issues, and he is not just a kibitzer but actively working to improve things. But I think the impact of his message below is somewhat too downbeat. I agree with him about Bob Nelson, who was the main force behind the Bedford freezing and whose mistakes cost him dearly. As to Alcor's staying power, they have a number of very rich members who would probably pitch in to relieve any emergency. (Part of the explanation for Alcor's high price is their pegging expected investment revenue at an average of only 2%, which is probably unrealistically low.) CI doesn't have as much money, but its growth, while still slow, has accelerated in recent years, and we also have people who would probably pitch in more financially in an emergency. As to backups for Andy and Ben, I don't want to go into details here, but some arrangements have been made and others are contemplated. As for lawsuits and predators, no guarantees exist, but the threat now seems lower than in earlier years. Of course, if or when we grow more rapidly, hostility in some quarters may become more active. But the USA enjoys a high tolerance for diversity, as witness the many ideologies and viewpoints and lifestyles that are allowed even though they are much more antithetic to the mainstream than cryonics. As to charity cases, CI does not accept them. There is a bit of confusion here arising from the fact that, in a couple of cases, people unable to fund themselves have been provided funding by others--charity, but not charity by CI, instead by individuals and in one case with the help of the Venturists. Again, many thanks to Dr. Havelock for his continuing efforts. Robert Ettinger In a message dated 4/21/2009 5:01:43 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, writes: CryoNet - Tue 21 Apr 2009 #31624: Re: CryoNet #31623 [ronhave] #31625: Re: Radio 5 live programme [Go Cryo!] Rate This Digest: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=31624%2D31625 Administrivia To subscribe to CryoNet, send email to: with the subject line (not message _body_): subscribe To unsubscribe, use the subject line: unsubscribe Message #31624 References: <> Subject: Re: CryoNet #31623 Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 12:43:27 -0400 From: I have listened carefully to this NPR broadcast twice now, and I think it is important for everyone involved in cryonics to also listen carefully and absorb the many lessons that it teaches. First of all, I think we should absolve Nelson of blame for what happened. This poor man was struggling with a task which was way over his head. He deceived himself, as others have before and since, with the notion that many people would flock to cryonics once they realized that it had a real possibility of working. he greatly underestimated the length of time it woulod take for cryonics to become popular. We are still waiting. More importantly, he also greatly underestimated the basic requirements for making it work, the first of which is to have an adequately funded and competently staffed facility with the ability to maintain itself over long periods. I think he gambled that, something like that mythical ballfield, if he started it and had real capsules filled with liquid nitrogen, they would come. Those who actually came, including the famous Dr Bedford, came with hope and desperation in their hearts but they came empty-handed. How could they imagine that this service would be free? Simply put, they took advantage of this man, and he returned the favor by promising much more than he could possibly deliver. Fast forward 30 years and what do we have? Just two organizations, both small, understaffed, and growing only slowly. Does either of these organizations really have the staying power to remain in business for another two hundred years or thereabouts, protecting the remains of those who put their trust in them? Is ALCOR protected from yet another hired CEO who will raid their treasury and betray their trust for fun and profit? Does CI have a plan for who will eventually take the place of the highly estimable Ben Best and the doggedly loyal and hardworking Andy? Can either organization be shielded from lawsuits and predators coming at them from left and right? Finally, we need to think about our charity cases. I note that ALCOR doesn't take them so their appeals are all directed to CI, making CI even more vulnerable. Our discreditors frequently raise the question of the expense of cryonics. Can we really be honest about this? ALCOR's $150K for a full body suspension is five times as much as CI. What is going on here? Ron Havelock -----Original Message----- From: CryoNet <> To: Sent: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 5:00 am Subject: CryoNet #31623 CryoNet - Mon 20 Apr 2009 #31623: Re: radio program [David Wallace Croft] Rate This Digest: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=31623%2D31623 Administrivia To subscribe to CryoNet, send email to: with the subject line (not message _body_): subscribe To unsubscribe, use the subject line: unsubscribe To post a message to CryoNet, send your message to: (Note: A "Subject:" line starting the message body replaces the "Subject:" line in the header. This gives a second opportunity to provide a meaningful subject line.) Since all CryoNet messages are archived and accessible via WWW, including search engines, make certain that your postings reflect how you want the world to see you. To retrieve past messages, send email to: with the message numbers in the subject line. (Message 0003 describes the advanced syntax.) You also can retrieve them via the CryoNet web page at URL: http://www.cryonet.org/ For administrative or other questions/suggestions, send email to me at "" with "cryonics" in the subject line. - Kevin Q. Brown Message #31623 Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 13:14:05 -0700 (PDT) From: David Wallace Croft <> Subject: Re: radio program > Message #31622 > Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 22:58:35 -0700 > Subject: radio program > From: Keith Henson <> > > I didn't hear it all, but there was a program on NPR > tonight, This > American life by Ira Glass, that discussed the Chatsworth > disaster and > interviewed Nelson. > > It seemed reasonably sympathetic to cryonics. Here is the URL: http://www.thislife.org/Radio_Episode.aspx?episode=354 -- David Wallace Croft / (214) 636-3790 m http://www.CroftSoft.com/people/david/ Rate This Message: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=31623 End of CryoNet Digest ********************* Rate This Message: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=31624 Message #31625 From: "Kennita (Go Cryo!)" <> Subject: Re: Radio 5 live programme Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 11:32:18 -0700 References: <> I Googled 'wma player intel mac 10.5' downloaded and installed www.microsoft.com/windows/windowsmedia/player/wmcomponents.mspx which claims to ""play Windows Media files (.wma and .wmv) directly in QuickTime Player and view Windows Media content on the Internet using a Web browser." Now when I go to the URL, instead of getting an error message, it just says Stopped on the status line. I tried downloading it ; Flip4Mac opened it but wouldn't play it. I give up. I don't have time for this. I remember seeing WMA to MP3 converters somewhere. Maybe someday I'll think to try it (it costs money (!), but it makes more sense to me to make the file available as an MP3 to begin with so everybody can play it without conversion. Live long and prosper, Kennita On Apr 18, 2009, at 2:00 AM, CryoNet wrote: > The underlying html code is > > <bgsound src="r5l.wma"> > > I am surprised if that is really Active X and not just html. You > could try > downloading < http://www.cryonics-europe.org/r5l.wma > and playing > it in an > audio media player that accepts wma files. It is not a video file, > only > audio. Better would be to download a windows media codec for your > browser. > Rate This Message: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=31625 End of CryoNet Digest ********************* **************Access 350+ FREE radio stations anytime from anywhere on the web. Get the Radio Toolbar! (http://toolbar.aol.com/aolradio/download.html?ncid=emlcntusdown00000003) Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" [ AUTOMATICALLY SKIPPING HTML ENCODING! ] Rate This Message: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=31627