X-Message-Number: 31972
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2009 14:50:20 -0700
Subject: Re: CAS freezing
From: Jeff Davis <>

I've done some further Googling, and have found support for Brian's analysis.

This document:

Vitrification and glass transition of water: insights from spin probe ESR
http://arxiv.org/ftp/cond-mat/papers/0409/0409440.pdf

refers to a "no man's land" for vitrified water between 150 and 233
deg K, consistent with Brian's comments.

I feel the need to remind everyone that even if at times I can shovel
the jargon, that I'm not expert enough to speak authoritatively.  So
caveat emptor.

So, the "flash" transformation of supercooled water to an amorphous
(vitrified) state does not appear possible.  Brian's alternative
hypothesis of ice composed of smaller ice grains(crystals) is a better
hypothesis -- because it's possible and plausible.

Best, jeff davis

On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 2:00 AM, Brian Wowk <> wrote:

Message #31970
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 22:15:01 -0700
Subject: CAS freezing

      It occurs to me that solidifying pure water into an amorphous
solid (vitrifying it) at the temperatures and pressures used by CAS is
physically impossible.  The reason is as follows.  We already know the
physical properties of amorphous (vitrified) water because it is
possible to vitrify pure water in the laboratory by cooling small
droplets very fast (about a million degrees Celsius per minute).  In
particular, we know the glass transition temperature of vitrified
water.  It is approximately -130 degC.  When a vitrified solid is
warmed above its glass transition temperature, it becomes liquid.
Therefore any vitrified water sample is going to turn to a liquid at a
temperature warmer than about -130 degC.  What happens when vitrified
water turns to liquid water at -130 degC?  It freezes into ice
practically instantly.

      Therefore, if we assume that ice formation is prevented by
electromagnetic energy in a CAS system at -20 degC, water will only be
able to exist in two states when the power is turned off.  It can only
exist as supercooled liquid, or exist as ice.  It cannot become an
amorphous solid because the temperature is a 100 degrees higher than
the known temperature at which glassy water turns to liquid water (the
glass transition temperature).

      I read the CAS patents a couple of years ago.  My understanding
is that they claim water does freeze when the power is turned off, but
into smaller, less damaging crystals.  This is possible, and it might
help food preservation.  But it's not going to keep the water level
the same as when the water was a liquid.  Ice is still ice.  Put a
sample of CAS solidified water into liquid water at 0 degC, and I
guarantee you it will float.

---Brian Wowk

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