X-Message-Number: 32158 From: David Stodolsky <> Subject: Re: CryoNet #32154 - #32157 Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 13:10:30 +0100 References: <> On 10 Nov 2009, at 3:44 PM, Mark Plus wrote: > > John de Rivaz writes: > > >An article in The Guardian, ostensibly about TV personality Clive > James' attitude to global warming, has a great deal to say about the > failure of cryonics to attract the 30% of the population who tell > pollsters that they would be interested. > >>> > >In 1973 the cultural anthropologist Ernest Becker proposed that the > fear of death drives us to protect ourselves with "vital lies" or > "the armour of character". > This theory is the basis for my arguments about the futility of current marketing efforts. I made the List aware of it several years back. Read about it at: http://www.ernestbecker.org/ Good intro film: http://flightfromdeath.com/ So, George Monbiot has the right theory, but reaches the wrong conclusion, because it is he himself that is deluded and ignoring the science: <http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/earthnews/6494213/Climate-change-belief-given-same-legal-status-as-religion.html > Climate change belief given same legal status as religion This comment is also worth a read: The article below is from the Space special interest group of the high IQ society Mensa. Global Warming on Mars and Climate Change from Space > If Dickinson is correct, is it fanciful to suppose that those who > are closer to the end of their lives might react more strongly > against reminders of death? I haven't been able to find any > experiments testing this proposition, but it is surely worth > investigating It is well known that the existential crisis occurs in middle age, when signs of ageing become obvious. Probably, he finds that people 60+ skeptical, because that have already seen the 'oil crisis', etc. of the 1970's, which also predicted "the end of the World as we know it (TM)" and know this sensationalistic nonsense is mostly to sell papers and to allow Big Oil to gouge the consumer without encountering much resistance. > In other words, humans created "self-esteem" as a kind of magical > thinking to manage their terror. Self-esteem doesn't sound that far > removed mentally from the wearing of talismans to ward off evil. > > Self-esteem can generate other problems as well: > > The Trouble With Self-Esteem > http://www.nytimes.com/2002/02/03/magazine/the-trouble-with-self-esteem.html > > which means concealment, not cockiness, is the real culprit. That > makes little sense. "These findings indicate that romantic secrecy may have harmful conseqeunces for both the relationship itself and the health of the partners involved." Lehmiller, JL, Secret romantic relationships: Consequences for personal and relational well being. Personality and Social Psychology Bulletin, 35(11), Nov.2009, 1452-1466. So, here we have a half-baked critique of current therapy approaches. There is an element of truth in all pop psych. She is right that self- esteem can't be a goal in itself, but must function within a system of personal meanings. This isn't a argument against TMT or self-esteem as a psychological variable. > I submit that the human population needs less self-esteem > Does not follow. > and other magical thinking about death (e.g., singularitarianism), > and more engagement with finding technological solutions to the > problem. > Right. However, the bio-technology we have right now is not the factor preventing the acceptance of cryonics. The limitation is the way cryonics is packaged - the social technology. We face a battle between differing belief systems - systems of meaning. We can see this playing out in the anti-abortion movement, which has just produced a Congressional amendment to the proposed healthcare reform bill and a domestic terrorist movement responsible for attacks on clinics across the Country, resulting in the deaths of doctors and property damage. At some point, cryonics will likely face the same type of opposition from religious fanatics. Without vastly greater numbers, US facilities will not have much of a chance. The only question is, will the Movement preempt this reaction or will it wait until people are dragged off to jail and until organizations are threaten with being regulated out of existence, like it did with the question of political action? Will it wait until safety for suspendees can only be achieved by bomb proof structures and 24 hour protection by heavily-armed security guards or will it make a vastly smaller investment now to circumvent an after-the-fact emergency payment, which, in any case, will likely be too-little and too-late to save the Movement in the US? dss David Stodolsky Skype: davidstodolsky Rate This Message: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=32158