X-Message-Number: 32266
References: <>
Subject: Re: Rebranding cryonics Message #32261
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2009 14:27:39 -0500
From: 

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Sorry, Jeff.  I've been doing cryonics for more than 30 years and the proof that
cryonics works is NOT a "done deal."  Far from it.  Yes, we can prove that, 
under good conditions, individual tissues can be preserved and revived.  Yes, it
seems probable that nanoscale repair will be feasible.  But that is 
"cryobiology."


"Cryonics" requires that we preserve and revive the individual person, with all 
(or most) of the memories and personality intact.  This requires something more 
than just a clone.  I have complete confidence that we will be able to produce a
genetic duplicate.  We are a long way from proving that cryopreveration 
technology -- especially as practiced today -- is preserving the individual's 
memory and personality.  It is still possible that the technology we have is 
destroying those synaptic connections and other mechanisms yet unknown, instead 
of preserving them.


Overconfidence does not help us; it just delays or prevents people from pursuing
the research that is still necessary 

Steve Bridge
former President of Alcor




Message #32261
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2009 11:40:59 -0700
Subject: Re: Rebranding cryonics
From: Jeff Davis <>

On Sun, Dec 27, 2009 at 3:00 AM,  Finance Department
<> wrote:

> Message #32258
> Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2009 01:33:34 -0500
> Subject: Re: Rebranding cryonics
> From: Finance Department <>

> The answer to how to rebrand cryonics seems to be as
> simple as demonstrating
> that it works, like an iPhone does, or a Kindle....

> Cryonics, unfortunately, has yet to be shown to work at all.

Like many folks who have a degree of familiarity with cryonics,
extending even to those well versed in the details,  Finance
Department doesn't "get it."  Cryonics DOES work.  And it can be SHOWN
to work, though the circumstances surrounding the cryonics experiment
restrict this "verification" to a logical rather than material
demonstration.  That the vast majority cannot access this visionary
truth does not change the fact that it is so.

For those who see me as a "true believer" let me state bluntly for the
record, I don't do "true believer", I do SCIENCE.

I don't intend to be coy here, (or impolite, or smug, or in any other
way disrespectful toward FD).  Clearly, FD means a material
demonstration, where an appropriate test subject is frozen, stored for
some period, and then restored to life.  This is what he means when he
says, "...shown to work."  Certainly, that would convert the vast
majority of doubters.  But neither their doubt -- nor my certainty --
alters the external reality.

Which is:

(1) Freezing at LN2 temperatures maintains the the stored item in
perfect condition effectively WITHOUT TIME LIMIT.

(2) Biology demonstrates the feasibility of precise manipulation of
biological structures at the molecular level.

(3) Science/materialism has repeatedly shown that "stuff" configured
properly will function properly.  This holds for both macroscopic and
microscopic configurations.  Toasters and ribosomes both perform
properly when configured properly.

(4) The "trajectory" of technology is "one way": toward increased
human ability to manipulate material at the molecular level.

After that, it's just a numbers game.  How long till we have computers
of sufficient power to coordinate the task of repairing perhaps
trillions of instances of cellular damage?  How long until a mature
technology capable of precise repair of biological structures at the
molecular level?  How much time will it take?  Now look back at item
number one.  THE TIME AVAILABLE IS EFFECTIVELY UNLIMITED.

Do you get it now?  It's a done deal.   Cryonics already works.

Will this persuade anyone not already persuaded?  Not likely.  It's
too great a leap.  The old prejudices are too ingrained.  Except for a
few futurist geeks the new paradigm -- genetic enhancements,
cybernetic augmentation, indefinite lifespan, artificial/cybernetic
intelligences, nanotech, uploading, and the Singularity -- will be for
post-humanity, the children of tomorrow.  The children of yesterday
will adhere to old paradigm thinking,...all the way to the grave.  And
the children of today, experiencing the transition from old paradigm
to new,...

"O brave new world, that hath such people in it."

Best, Jeff Davis





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