X-Message-Number: 32342
References: <>
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2010 07:50:05 -0800 (PST)
From: Luke Parrish <>
Subject: Re: Uppity Cryonet Members

If you expect the majority of people attracted to cryonics to be mature,
in the normal sense of the word, you are going to be disappointed. I've
met a few mature people in cryonics, but they are relatively scarce.
Most of us (including myself) can be considered eccentric when evaluated
by prevalent social criteria, even in absence of cryonics. But I think
this is not caused by belief in cryonics, rather that cryonics
(subjectively) represents an ultimate sort of rebellion that attracts
contrarians, creatives, and crazies. Generally speaking, you don't join
cryonics unless you have pretty much given up caring what people think.

Which is what Eliezer was getting at with his blog post that was quoted
here. You shouldn't need to be a weird person to join the cryonics
movement. And furthermore, people these days who join are much closer
to the normal side of the spectrum. We see more girls involved, couples,
kids. It's becoming a more normal thing.

Furthermore it is a very *logical* thing. That science is advancing is
a fact. We shouldn't be staking our eternal existence on the kind of
vague philosophical reassurances that religion offers us when science
(with its evidence of steady progress) provides a concrete alternative.
And from a logical perspective, it doesn't matter that this alternative
is not assured of success (science assumes no absolutes), it only
matters that it is better than the remaining alternatives.

The fact that it is perceived as an abnormal thing by most people is a
*social* phenomenon. We look at cryonics (myself included) and in our
animal brains we perceive *risk* where there is none. The only true risk
is a social one. But social risks need to be evaluated separately from
survival risks. People are typically too lazy or lack the critical
thinking skill to do so. That is why Eliezer Yudkowsky is using such
social shock tactics on his blog readers.

Cryonics is much more than a one in a million chance at this point, if
practiced under ideal conditions. We have strong evidence that
vitrification of the brain with zero toxicity and zero ice crystal
formation is possible. Technology to regrow body parts is already being
used in the lab.

Selling the dream is very much a heroic effort, because so far as we
know cryonics is already 100% effective. There is a very plausible
mechanism by which current cryonics technology can be used to preserve
the lives of people who are beyond the help of today's medical science.
Refusal to join this movement is an act of cowardice, not out of fear
of one's life but out of fear for one's social standing.

A hero doesn't have to be assured of success, she only has to determine
the best available course of action and *do* it.


Hope this makes sense to you,

Luke

> Message #32339
> From: "Warren Keevers" 
> Subject: =?windows-1255?Q?uppity_cryonet_members=FE?=
> Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2010 14:09:38 +1000
> 
> Hello,
> 
> My name is warren, and I have been on your mailing list now for a few years,
> just lurking..
> 
> I wasn't going to ever really post here as I was just interested in cryonics
> and thought it would be interesting to read up on what you all have to say.
> 
> 
> Sincerely disappointed! I won't mention any names but the last straw was
> being called a "lousy parent" because I simply haven't signed my kids up. 
> 
> I thought the majority of you would be a little more mature, and intelligent
> enough to realize that what you are trying to achieve has at the very best a
> one in a million chance of working at this point in time. Again at the very
> best! Which is usually admirable but you lot have lost your way, if you
> really ever had one. I do realize cryonics is possible, of course it is, as
> we all know nature does it, do you really think most people don't know
> that?? 
> 
> At first I thought I would see a lot of posts by people showing experiments
> that you have done (and in your defense there are some in your group doing
> this, but they are sadly the minority), maybe even some scientific
> breakthroughs which the people in cryonics have made, generally speaking a
> bunch science type people all working together to achieve a working end
> result, but no, all I am seeing is a bunch of self absorbed fools setting up
> trust funds (or whatever they are) so they will have money in a future that
> supposedly has the ability to repair the human body on a cellular level.
> Hate to reign in on your parade but if people in the future can do that,
> then your money will mean NOTHING! 
> 
> I'm also wondering (and I know this is a little off topic), but are you all
> just waiting for Jesus to come back to earth, sorry, I mean the singularity
> (I get them mixed up all the time ; ) ), so you can just leach of the
> technological advancements achieved? Why not do something fruitful and
> instead of pouring all that money into a glorified freezer. Why not start
> contributing to the world today? If as some of you believe, your pseudo
> immortality depends upon this singularity then why not start putting some
> money into AI? Or maybe spend some real money as a group on something other
> than liquid nitrogen and a tank. You freeze people then expect the future
> people to do all the work for you, If I was one of these people in the
> future, id shoot your body straight into the sun simply because your too
> lazy to make a real contribution to the human race. There are so many
> variables in your pipe dream, but then you all know that don't you? 
> 
> When I think of cryonics now and specifically your group, I think of a
> religious organization, because in all honesty you are closer to that then
> any other category, you have a belief and you think that anyone who
> disagrees with you is wrong and/or simply beneath you. Might I remind of you
> of the scientific method, or does science have no bearing in this group? 
> 
> Another thing, you want to know why people aren't signing up, its because
> cryonics at this point in time for humans has, as I said before, at best a
> one in a million chance of working, I believe that id have just as much
> chance of going to heaven (or hell.. lol) as waking up after being frozen
> with liquid nitrogen, and none of you can prove this incorrect. All I've
> been reading lately is badger data this, badger data that, blah blah blah.
> You are (generally speaking) in my opinion more interested in marketing than
> science or for that matter, actually doing something!
> 
> I am a programmer and have been interested in AI and robotics for some time,
> so you know what I did, I started learning about it, I started working on
> it. Instead of trying to recruit people, instead of preaching how good it
> will be when it happens, I sat down and tried to do it, needless to say I
> failed, and needless to say it most likely won't be me that does create an
> AI robot. But If I were to take the approach that most of your group in
> cryonics is currently taking I'd duct tape a computer to a Lego man and then
> try to sell it to the people as a artificially intelligent robot. Then I
> would probably get really annoyed because no one is buying it. Maybe I can
> refer to the badger data, it will most likely tell me that people are too
> stupid to realize what I am selling and if they did have the brains, they
> would be too gutless to sign up because their friends would think them
> idiots. Hrrrm maybe it's a bad analogy (it's hard to find one that fits).. I
> know, put the laptop duct taped to a Lego man in liquid nitrogen, then the
> future people can turn him into a real robot and send him back to me, using
> time travel of course, How many of you want one? I'll sell them to you for
> $5000 each. 
> 
> In conclusion
> 
> The real pioneers/hero's of cryonics and many other fields are the
> scientists working in genetics, nanotechnology, the inventors, the ones
> actually advancing our knowledge, but most definitely not a group of people
> selling a dream.
> 
> Your alive now, make the most of it. You can have a dream there isn't
> anything wrong with that, but don't make it an obsession, and don't belittle
> those who don't agree with you.
> 
> Best Regards
> 
> Warren

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