X-Message-Number: 32466 Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2010 15:38:58 -0700 From: Kitty Antonik Wakfer <> Subject: Re: CryoNet #32460 - Rudi's Statements about Variable Annuiti... References: <> --------------050707050601050800030802 > > Message #32460 > Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2010 23:44:54 -0500 > Subject: Re: Cash funding for cryonics > From: Rudi Hoffman <> > > --0016363ba1aef6b7e8048142b9da > > > [snip of non-related portions] > Sorry, Kitty, but variable annuities, including the ones availble through > Vanguard, (and I make them all available and have sold as well as invested > in millions of dollars in Variable Annuities over the last 32 years) are not > considered guaranteed and not suitable for cryonics funding.. If the variable annuities that I and Paul have were "not considered guaranteed and not suitable for cryonics funding", Alcor would *not* have accepted them for funding our contracts. We conducted fair search and examination of various investment vehicles, including variable annuities available from other companies, before finding this unique and fully applicable Vanguard kind. Perhaps, Rudi, you not aware of their unique differences from most others that are available. From the information available at their website it certainly appears to me that they cannot be and are never sold by intermediary agents. So all that you, Rudi, could gain from dealing with them is acting as an advisor and interpreting the Vanguard descriptive language. This would certainly be a worthwhile role to play (although Paul could also do this easily for any interested people), but there is certainly no "selling" of Vanguard annuities possible by outside agents (there are no sales commissions) as is made clear from their website. "You don't pay sales charges, so more of your money goes to work for you." With respect to surrender charges: "You gain flexibility and can save money because there aren't any surrender charges." https://personal.vanguard.com/us/whatweoffer/annuities/variable Vanguard does offer Certified Financial Planner services; are you, Rudi, one of these? https://personal.vanguard.com/us/whatweoffer/advice > Because of > the longstanding relationship you and Paul had with Alcor, the board may > have made an exception in your case, but the general case still applies for > general funding situations. > It's flattering that you think I and Paul have some special "longstanding relationship ... with Alcor", but that is not at all true. Either you have never known the relationship Paul had with Alcor - I had none until my application in March 2005, having chosen CryoCare in 1996 - or you have totally forgotten. Paul canceled his contract with Alcor in 1992 after his call for the establishment of a search committee to find a replacement for then Board President Carlos Mondragon (who had done a fine job leading Alcor through the tumultuous situations brought on by the cryopreservation of Dora Kent) and Paul's assuming the Presidency of CryoVita (in which he had made a major investment and come to LA to be involved with). These actions and others by Mike Darwin (who canceled his contract at the same time as Paul) and Saul Kent resulted in a number of Alcor members creating CryoCare in September 1993 (not sure of these exact dates). From the time of CryoCare's demise in 1998 until our contract approval by Alcor in December 2005, both of us were without cryopreservation contract coverage, mainly because there existed no cryopreservation provider that met our standards of operation. In fact during this time we had been critical of Alcor both in writing and vocally. From all our reading there are still many deficiencies in Alcor's operations. The only reason we joined Alcor when we did was because we consider them overall the better of the two and they were about to increase their neuro price so much that we would then have a hard time getting that much cash together quickly. During the nine months after our application submission, time was spent in email correspondence between Paul and certain parties at Alcor, sometimes with a specific Vanguard representative knowledgeable about our annuities, answering their questions and completing all items that ensured the necessary online visibility of all our account details at anytime. This also included, we were informed, correspondence and phone calls between Alcor representative(s) and parties at Vanguard. Yes, we were not going the typical insurance route, but at *no* time and in any way were we given any special treatment nor was there "an exception in [our] case". We are confident that others will have an easier time getting approval by Alcor (and maybe even CI) for using a variable annuity as funding now that we have done the ground work with our variable annuities through Vanguard. Again, for those interested in Vanguard's variable annuities as a method of funding a cryopreservation contract as we have, Vanguard can be contacted directly by phone or email (Paul did the latter since we always want a record of discussions). And if anyone contemplating funding hir cryopreservation through the use of Vanguard variable annuities wants any additional help interpreting Vanguard's descriptive language and its real import, then Paul, who is the one who exhaustively did this for our purchase, would be happy to assist. https://personal.vanguard.com/us/whatweoffer/annuities/variable > My purpose was and is to provide helpful and generally suitable and > appropriate information regarding not slopping up our cryonics > funding. Kitty, your personal funding is probably just right for you, and I > wouldn't want you to change a thing assuming Alcor approved your funding. > You need not "assume" that Alcor approved our funding, since we are both in the Alcor Membership Directory with full names. We were notified by email on 12/5/2005 by Jennifer Chapman that: [You] were approved as members this past week. With your finalization packages, Diane will send you copies of the completed LPOA form & the additional agreement. Thank you for all of your efforts and patience. It is my pleasure to welcome you as Alcor members. The above was in response to Paul's email of 12/4/2005 to Jennifer, in part: It has been over a month now since I and Kitty were there to sign the Limited Power of Attorney forms giving Alcor more enhanced access to our Vanguard Annuity Account information so that Alcor could more easily verify that our funding was in order when and if necessary. If the above does not satisfy you that Vanguard variable annuities *are* funding our cryopreservation contracts with Alcor, I hope that you will contact Alcor yourself and not remain in a state of simply "assuming" that this is so. > So, thanks for the usual cryonet nitpicking, and I stand by the my posting. > :) > I do not "nit pick" - I only spend my time making essential points. If you, Rudi, think something I've written is simply a "a minor shortcoming" - "nit." /Webster's Third New International Dictionary, Unabridged/ . Merriam-Webster, 2002. http://unabridged.merriam-webster.com (8 Mar. 2010) - I say that you are unaware of or are ignoring an essential. **Kitty Antonik Wakfer MoreLife for the rational - http://morelife.org Reality based tools for more life in quantity and quality The Self-Sovereign Individual Project - http://selfsip.org Self-sovereignty, rational pursuit of optimal lifetime happiness, individual responsibility, social preferencing & social contracting --------------050707050601050800030802 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 [ AUTOMATICALLY SKIPPING HTML ENCODING! ] Rate This Message: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=32466