X-Message-Number: 32576 From: "John de Rivaz" <> References: <> Subject: Re: ten good cryonicists? Date: Sun, 2 May 2010 12:27:10 +0100 It has been asked what the critical mass of prepaid people would be needed to build a cryonics preparation and storage facility in the UK to serve northern Europe. Ten? This is a very good way of looking at it. The obvious first question is how much to ask per patient. CI and Alcor vary widely. As we are considering the UK, then lets use British pounds. A CI membership in the UK includes a transport element, so to keep the maths easy lets suggest L50,000 as the prepayment fee, which is a bit more than the cost with CI. However the unreliability of air transport and international shipment has been removed, so it is reasonable to put a price tag on this benefit. Ten members therefore equates to a total of half a million pounds. Surely it ought to be possible to do it for this? I suspect not. Therefore the options are simply to wait for more members or increase the price. Bear in mind this is prepayment, not insurance funding. Increasing the price would make the wait for enough members longer. The longer the wait, the more expensive the task becomes. The cost of buildings and services are both subject to high inflation. Some who may be considering cryonics will perish and be destroyed without the facility ever appearing. I will make some guesses as to what would be needed. These are fairly wild guesses - maybe others can suggest some figures that are more calculated: First lets look at the endowment fund needed to run it all: Income required from endowment fund L000s wages 25 (probably be lucky to get away with so "little") taxes, insurance etc on wages 12 accountancy 2 building taxes, insurance, utilities 10 equipment maintenance and liquid nitrogen 5 that totals 54 in normal times one would probably aim at getting about 3% income after tax from a fund whose principal keeps up with inflation, therefore to produce 54k invest 1800k The capital therefore works out as follows: L000s building purchase 500 fitout 100 professional fees etc (for business as well as premises, assuming volunteers not available) 75 endowment fund 1800 total 2475, say two and a half million. If adequate professional help is available, from determined and enthusiastic people, it may be possible to reduce taxes which could reduce these figures. For example there is a 17.5% tax penalty on paying the professional fees and buying any equipment and making maintenance expenditure which may be legally avoidable with suitable professional help. In addition, with suitable help, it may be possible to reduce taxation on funds used by members to make the prepayments. But cutting taxes doesn't mean it would become cheap, just less expensive! An alternative method of funding the running costs would be to charge a subscription to live members. However this has the problem that when near death, payments may be missed. And, of course, if the live membership drops without replacement, then the facility may become unviable. But with the proposed ten members, the subscription would be approximately 500/month. Not cheap, but feasible. But how many people would turn away from cryonics if it involved a loss of income of L500/month? They'd still have to put up nearly 70k each to join. That sort of commitment would certainly enhance the idea that cryonics is only for the rich. Also if the income earner of a household decides to commit part of his income and capital this way the other members may object. Cryonics did not start on this sort of a basis. If these calculations had been done it maybe never would have started. But the price of a DIY or "garage" approach was disasters on the way. There do need to be facilities in different legislatures and also to reduce the risks and uncertainties of transport between legislatures. The Eyjafjallajokull fiasco illustrated how cheap mass air transport has become compared to traditional surface transport. People took cheap mass air transport for granted - until it was taken away. We cryonicists should realise that cryonics as presented by the two US service providers is really very cheap compared to what it might be if started from scratch. -- Sincerely, John de Rivaz: http://John.deRivaz.com for websites including Cryonics Europe, Longevity Report, The Venturists, Porthtowan, Alec Harley Reeves - inventor, Arthur Bowker - potter, de Rivaz genealogy, Nomad .. and more Content-Type: text/html; [ AUTOMATICALLY SKIPPING HTML ENCODING! ] Rate This Message: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=32576