X-Message-Number: 32872
From: Brook Norton <>
Subject: survival thought experiments - inherently self-contradictory
Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2010 09:53:15 -0700

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David provides a thought experiment (only the first line copied below) to
show why uploading won't work. I have found that you can do thought
experiments to show why any type of survival will OR won't work. When you do
a proof, and end up with 2 = 4, you know your initial assumptions are wrong.
The initial assumption that is wrong with all survival thought experiments
is "there is some essential human quality, that when preserved, results in
survival of that person."

 

I believe you have to totally step away from the mind set of "I" am a
person, unique and separate from the universe and my uniqueness must be
maintained. Instead, see yourself from a third party distant observer, where
each human is a collection of molecules, interacting with their environment
in essentially the same way as inanimate objects. The human's awareness is a
special property, but no more special than temperature or weight, to the
observer.

 

As time passes, the humans change; grow older, die, get frozen, get
duplicated, whatever - they change. Period. End of observation. No need to
invoke the word "survive" to describe what has happened to the observed
humans. "Survive" is a flawed word used to describe an erroneous description
of human qualities.

 

Take uploading for example. Say awareness IS possible in a non-organic
substrate (and I agree with Ettinger that it may not; tbd). Say the memories
and personalities ARE created on this non-organic substrate and are
conscious there. Did the person survive uploading? Wrong question. Doesn't
make sense. All we can say is that there is now an awareness in the upload
that is conscious of the memories and feelings that the human used to have.
That's all that need be said. If the person is happy or sad about this
because it seems to him like he did/didn't survive, then the person is
experiencing emotions based on a faulty foundation. Just like someone who
gets upset in an earthquake because they are afraid the Earth will fall off
the back of the turtle that holds the Earth in space. 

 

Brook Norton

 

Message #32869

Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2010 13:13:37 -0700 (PDT)

From: david pizer <>

Subject: uploading thought experiment

 

Here is a thought experiment that should show you why uploading will not
work as a survival option for you. (. deleted)



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