X-Message-Number: 33389
From:
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 03:01:44 EST
Subject: Melody Maxim's Distorted Reality 22
Content-Language: en
Mike Darwin: The report was not secret, but was also not written for
public consumption. The only restriction on its distribution was one that I put
there myself, namely that I would give Saul Kent the courtesy of being told,
in advance, to whom it was being shown or copied. Everyone who I have
copied has received, in addition, the comments made by SA management and my
responses thereto. I should also mention that I was in no way paid (or
otherwise compensated) for any of the advice or reports I did for SA. My
airfare
and lodging were paid for by SA; my only activity during the trip was to
evaluate SA (there were no golfing excursions or other 'entertainment').
MM: 3. Pictures are not always "worth a thousand words." I could grab some
construction workers off the street, gown and glove them, sit them behind
some medical equipment and take pictures of them, and what would that
prove? Even the addition of a "legally dead" patient, or a dog, wouldn't make
those masked men and women competent. (As I recall, one of the photos Mike
posted on another discussion forum appeared to show a large bolus of air/foam
in the perfusion circuit, in the raceway of the pump. I didn't bother to
mention it.)
Mike Darwin: Those pictures weren't posted to demonstrate the competence
of the personnel present or to prove my competence. Rather, I asserted my
competence and used the pictures to demonstrate the equipment and working
environment I was significantly responsible for.
These are some of the pictures I would use in establishing my competence:
Below is picture of me (and Saul Kent) in 1981 with one of the first dogs
the Alcor-Cryovita team recovered following 4 hours of asanguineous
perfusion at ~5 deg C. A full technical description of these experiments and
their
results is available at: http://www.alcor.org/Library/html/tbwcanine.html:
These photos show the environment and technology used to achieve this
feat:
Above: The operating room in the small, privately funded lab (Cryovita)
where the work was carried out. Left to right: Brenda Peters. Bill Jameson,
Carlos Mondragon (background) Paul Genteman, Hugh Hixon (seated at the
Radiometer blood gas machine), Jerry Leaf, Scott Greene, and Mike Darwin
(sitting on the stool operating the bag-valve ventilator in the foreground).
Above: Alcor volunteer Bill Jameson (left) and Jerry Leaf preparing to
open the bypass circuit and initiate blood washout:
Above: Oxygenator & heat exchanger set-up with blood collection bags
shortly after blood washout. While the fluid in the circuit is red, the actual
hematocrit was less than 2%.
Above: Blood electrolytes and pH were normalized after asanguineous
perfusion during rewarming by dialyzing the dog using a dialysate with desired
electrolyte composition buffered to the desired pH (7.4).
These experiments were open to scrutiny and were witnessed by a wide range
of people, some of whom are still alive and active in cryonics today.
Below is Max More with Rusty one of our many canine total body washout &
extended asanguineous perfusion survivors. Max was present for this experiment
as
well as several others:
The photo below is notable for the grief our openness caused us.
Cryonicists from the UK attended some of these experiments and in one instance
shared personal pictures made during an experiment with the British media (see
newspaper article reproduced below):
Above: A TBW dog recovers consciousness following 4 hours of asanguineous
perfusion as team members and visitors look on. Left to right: Max More,
Garret Smyth, Arthur McCombs, Hugh Hixon, Brenda Peters, Mike Darwin and
Steve Harris, M.D.
Among the many inaccuracies in the story above are the small details that
the dogs used in this work were not pets and that the animals pictured had
survived the experiments and were subsequently placed in good homes. Little
has changed in over 25 years, and even today sensational, outrageous (and
false) claims continue to be made about cryonics organizations and
activities in the media.
I would also show these images since they bear directly upon my competence
as a perfusionist and as a scientist. When you have been the perfusionist
who has successfully recovered 5 dogs following ~15 minutes of whole body
NORMOTHERMNIC ischemia you have earned the right to impugn my competence:
MM: 4. If Mike is, as Wikipedia indicates, "second only to Robert Ettinger
as one of the most influential figures in the controversial field of
cryonics," (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Darwin), then he's been of
tremendous influence in an endeavor that, in my opinion, is possibly one of the
most miserable failures in medical science history.
Mike Darwin: With this assessment I find little cause to argue. I have
made many foolish mistakes. Regrettably, life currently offers few 'do overs.'
Jordan Sparks Jordan Sparks
(Login jordansparks)
Veteran Member
Thank you February 5 2009, 12:27 PM
I continue to be grateful to Mike for attempting to pass along his
knowledge. I'm glad to see some of it making its way to a public forum rather
than
being restricted to private forums. Since I don't expect anyone to write a
textbook on the subject anytime soon, the best I can do is to add these
things to my personal archive for future use.
I do not think cryonics has been a miserable failure. Instead I see it as
simply very early in its infancy. The number of years that have passed is
not very relevant. I mean that there are maybe 1500 people in the entire
world who are even moderately interested in cryonics. Only a certain very small
percentage of those will be technically skilled and motivated enough to
actually do anything to improve the situation. I think everyone knows that
the procedures and equipment used could be much better. I think everyone is
doing the best they can. I see little point in criticising people for not
doing good enough or trying to drive them out of cryonics for performing
substandard care. It's all substandard. We know that. It will likely take many
more decades of growth to begin to see improvements. Yes, back in the 80's
quality was better due to Darwin and Leaf. I hope we see more individuals
like them come along soon, and I hope some of the skills can be passed on to
the new generation. But I wouldn't call it a failure. And I wish people
would stop the personal attacks. They do not improve the situation in the
slightest. Of course, it seems that many on Cold Filter love to bicker, so my
request will probably be ignored.
George
(Login George1st)
Probationary User
Change Does Not Come Easily February 5 2009, 1:26 PM
Jordan Sparks: "Of course, it seems that many on Cold Filter love to
bicker, so my request will probably be ignored."
There might be some folks here who like to bicker, but I think most
contributors voice their criticism because they are dissatisfied with the
quality
that nation's cryo providers provide. Two bonafide perfusionists
participated in discussion here. Both of them voiced their concern over the
quality
of service and care. Both stated that in too many instances unqualified
people caused massive embolism to patients. I think that at one point one of
them expressed an opinion that all people in the dewars have damages that are
probably beyond repair. I think it might not be an exaggeration, but the
sad truth. All the criticism was not enough to make any change. There is
more to proper suspension than to take for example $150,000 from people,
freeze them and them let them soak in the boiling liquid nitrogen.
Unfortunately
the regulator that could regulate and improve this field are reluctant (or
lazy) to enter the field, and start doing their job, unless something
horrible happens that outrages the nation. So I do not expect any relief and
improvements caused by regulations any time soon. Criticism is being shaken
off more easily that a dog shakes off his flees. Larry Johnson is starting
something. Even as I disagree with most of his activities, I hope that he
succeeds in one of them, causing the development of appropriate standards and
enforcement of them.
Jordan Sparks Jordan Sparks
(Login jordansparks)
Veteran Member
Regulation would not help February 5 2009, 1:39 PM
Regulation would not improve care. Dedicated individuals improve care.
Regulation is interfering with care at CI.
George
(Login George1st)
Probationary User
"Anarchy" and Lack of Accountability February 5 2009, 1:58 PM
Unfortunately, CI is not being regulated as a cryo provider, but only as a
cemetery. It is something they were able to attain. But even that has some
pluses.
What is "regulations"? It is a set of standards directing the minimum
level and quality of services and care that shall be provided and then
enforcement of those standards and disciplining those who do not adhere to those
standards. Every hospital, every hospice, every nursing home, even every
funeral home in the country is being regulated and I think it guarantees much
better service to the public.
Jordan Sparks Jordan Sparks
(Login jordansparks)
Veteran Member
And that's exactly what would happen with more regulation February 5
2009, 2:18 PM
If cryonics starts getting regulated on a state-by-state basis, you know
it will fall under the umbrella of the funeral industry. You don't seriously
think it's going to happen any other way, do you? So in states like
Michigan, cryonics will be regulated according to the very morally conservative
government of that state. And in states like Oregon, we might luck out and
get regulated in a more enlightened manner. But even the funeral industry is
not heavily regulated in every state. An industry has to get big and have a
lot of potential to do damage before the government is going to go to the
significant effort of regulating it separately. Of course, governments have
successfully argued that cryonics is already regulated without needing to
pass any further laws. I don't think that pushing for regulation makes any
sense at all.
Mike Darwin
(Login mgdarwin)
Veteran Member
Regulation and Cryonics February 5 2009, 10:35 PM
There is a lot of discussion here about the need for regulation in
cryonics - a need I agree is both real and pressing. However, so far as I can
tell, there has been no discussion of what kind of regulation is necessary and
how it should be achieved and implemented. Id like to comment on these
issues.
To start with, I think it is important to discuss various types of
regulation, why regulations are implemented or imposed, and the mechanics of how
professional regulation typically comes about. These insights can then
(hopefully) be applied to cryonics.
Historically, most of commerce and human activity in the West have been
unregulated by the state. This was so because there was insufficient wealth
to support such global regulation and, more importantly, because other, more
powerful, more effective and more efficient control mechanisms were
operative. Social and peer pressures in small communities are very powerful and
ostracism, and being excluded from some or all of the social and business
life of a community, are very effective disciplinary tools. These mechanisms
are effective disciplinary tools provided that the community is small enough
that word gets around and that the community has strong and relatively
uniform moral values or standards of behavior. Live in a small town (500 to
2,000 people) and you will quickly understand that an abundance of
information about the character and behavior of all of the residents is readily
available.
With the advent of cities, international (and now global) commerce, and
the emergence of myriad highly sophisticated and technologically complex
goods and services (including financial instruments) the paradigm of local
control, based upon extensive local knowledge of the goods and services, and
their providers, breaks down. Even so, much of commerce remains unregulated by
the state because it is not only not cost effective to impose such
regulation; it is actually destructive to commerce and innovation. New ideas
and
great innovations almost invariably come from the bottom of commerce or from
outside of it altogether; from individuals, or a few individuals who have
an idea, a dream in the form of a new product or service and who work to
make it a reality -usually with little in the way of capital and nothing in
the way of broad commercial or social acceptance.
If established enterprises, society at large, or the state could
appreciate the value of fundamentally new ideas there would be no need for
start-up
businesses or for entrepreneurship. Unfortunately, the more powerful and
paradigm changing an idea or the product or service that embodies it is, the
more likely it is to be considered unworkable, useless, or actually
dangerous and therefore something to be suppressed. Not infrequently the
inventors
themselves fail to grasp the real utility and commercial and social power
of their own inventions; Thomas Edison was convinced that moving pictures
had no broad or deep entertainment value and would never be used for more
than arcade fun and for scientific and historical purposes to study motion,
record historical events, and so on.
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
[ AUTOMATICALLY SKIPPING HTML ENCODING! ]
Rate This Message: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=33389
Warning: This message was filtered from the daily CryoNet digest
because the poster sent too many messages per digest.
It thus may need to be rated.