X-Message-Number: 33437 Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2011 09:47:18 -0700 Subject: Martine's reply to Bob Ettenger From: Keith Henson <> I forwarded Bob's request to Martine to Lori Rhodes, who I know as an assistant to Martine. Per below; ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Dear Keith, You are too kind! I did register however, in lieu of my spending the necessary time to acquaint myself to the CryoNet posting protocol, if you would post Martine'e response (below), I'd be most appreciative and shall continue to sing your praises! Please feel free to use (if possible) the email address I register with: Fondly, Lori Martine's response to Bob: On Sat, Mar 5, 2011 at 8:27 PM, <> wrote: > Hi Lori -- My responses to Dr. Ettinger are in black. Please feel free to > post on Cryonet. > >> > -------- Original Message -------- >> > Subject: Contact with Martine for Ettenger? >> > From: Keith Henson <> >> > Date: Sat, March 05, 2011 11:48 am >> > To: Lori Rhodes <> >> > >> > >> > This showed up on Cryonet today. >> > >> > Keith >> > >> > Message #33421 >> > From: >> > Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2011 00:11:48 -0500 (EST) >> > Subject: Terasem >> > >> > It is interesting, exasperating, and frustrating to read about Terasem and >> > try to gauge its effects, its usefulness or counterproductivity. >> > Thanks for spending the time thinking about Terasem and its efforts. >> > Aside from the fact that all of its leaders appear to be women, members of >> > Terasem seem in many respects to resemble cryonicists, and indeed support >> > for cryonics is one of its specific endeavors. But Terasem also seems to >> > support a whole gamut of futuristic programs including various kinds of >> > transhumanism and especially "mind uploading" (into a digital computer). Your comment makes us smile, because it implies that cryonicist leaders do not appear to be women. I'm thinking Linda Chamberlain and Tanya Jones -- great femaie cryonicist leaders. Anyway, yes, Terasem is gung ho on the future. >> > >> > The evidence seems very clear to me that (1) "mind uploading" into a >> > digital computer will never happen, and (2) support for the concept among >> > cryonicists has a strong tendency to turn off potential supporters of >> cryonics. I have seen no evidence that mind uploading won't happen; to the contrary, I think the evidence strongly supports the hypothesis that it will happen. My support for mind uploading has not affected my support for cryonics in the least. In fact, I continue to increase my efforts for cryonics, most recently with the development of a Brevard County, FL support response group. >> > >> > Some numbers would be useful, but I don't have them. How many belong to >> > Terasem? All humanity belongs to Terasem. It is defined as the collective consciousness of humanity. That would be about 7 billion people. As it says in Truth of Terasem 1.2.2 "Never mistake the organization for Terasem, nor foresake the organization for expedience, convenience or misguidance." > How many of these agree with the uploading notion? Most transhumanists, and almost all Singulatarians, agree with uploading. Many thousands of books have been purchased on these subjects, and many thousands pay to go to these conferences. That is a pretty good guesstimate of those who agree with the notions, plus or minus 50%. > How many give how >> > much money/effort to promotion of Terasem, and how much to cryonics? Millions of people give money and effort to promoting the collective consciousness of humanity, which is Terasem. As per Truth of Terasem 1.2.4 "Extroprian organizations arise from Terasem to outcompete entropy, as do life forms from nurturing environments." I believe Alcor and its other cryonics orgs publish some donation numbers. >> > >> > Any help would be appreciated. I have had no luck trying to communicate >> > with Martine Rothblatt. Robert -- Quoted below is your successful contact with me, and my responses, from March of last year. Best always, and ad astra, of space, time and mind. Hi Robert -- See some responses in Green On Sat, Mar 13, 2010 at 11:03 PM, < <mailto:> > wrote: > Thank you for your kind words and your attention. Your > achievements are impressive, as is the scope of your > further ambitions for yourself and all of us. Ambitions/ideas don't amount to much, if anything, if not implemented. Your achievements are evidenced in the reality of the two good cryonic preservation orgs today, plus their support contractors. > > You have explicitly acknowledged that your hypotheses > are in need of justification, and I am confident that your > sense of realism will tell you that there is a hard row > ahead in overcoming cultural inertia sufficiently for > substantial growth of a rationalist movement. Our hypothesis are standard scientific hypotheses. Some experiments can take a while to consummate, even decades. We have funded Terasem such that it can continue to pursue the mindfile and cellular regeneration experiments for decades until they are proven or disproven. A rationalist movement, per se, is not needed for the pursuit of our scientific research at lifenaut.com <http://lifenaut.com/> > > We need to find some way(s) to exploit our main asset, > which is the capability of maintaining honesty or integrity > even though the truth is not always pleasant and it is often > painful to jettison your indoctrination. Shaw said something > like, "To be in Hell is to drift; to be in Heaven is to steer." Great quote! I have benefited enormously from being mentored by great steersman as Gerard K. O'Neill (space colonies) and Ray Kurzweil. We all share a positivist view that destiny is controllable, if efforts are successful. Persistence is omnipotence. > > I wonder if you are aware of David Pearce, who wrote > The Hedonistic Imperative (hedweb.com <http://hedweb.com/> )? He has gone > furthest of anyone I know, and of course has had very little > following. His goal is the total elimination of suffering for > all animals on earth. I have avoided using the label of > Hedonist for myself, but am reconsidering that. My > philosophy is after all a kind of neohedonism. Fighting > the use of a false characterization of hedonism (simple > devotion to sensual pleasure) could be a helpful wedge. I'm not familiar with him, and in any event I'm not much of a labeler. One very big problem I have is that even though I've benefited from a speed reading course, I am hopelessly awash in things to read that are yet unread. It is probably because I'm at least as much disciplined, if not more, about enjoying life via outdoors activities and time with my loving spice of 28 years than I am in doing 'a book a day.' > > I'm rambling, but the various organizations tied to futurism > and transhumanity seem mostly to have faded, or at least > fallen far short. We need somehow to salvage their assets > and correct their errors. > I don't really take such a dim view. Let's take the WTA for example. It has morphed into H+ and via their very slick monthly publication they are now reaching100x if not 1000x more people than the stodgy WTA or the avante garde Entropy folks ever reached -- although they are reaching them with the same message. In other words, the number of people who are buying transhumanism is vastly greater now than in the 70s - 90s. This is an unmistakeable sign of success. > I don't know how much I'll be able to do, or for how long, > but I think we can use both our similarities and our > differences to good account. Your grasp far exceeds your reach; in this body or not, you are remaking the world via your published ideas and via the other minds your memes have colonized, like mine. I hope you build up a robust mindfile at lifenaut. I'm sure will use our unities and diversities to synergistic effect! > > Thank you again. The thanks is all mine to you. What little I have done is mostly to encourage teams of very talented people to be all they can be -- which is to transcend bodily and mental limitations. I am still pinching myself to have the privilege to exchange thoughts with you. So you know me a little bit better, some of my other heroes are Robert Heinlein, Thomas Starzl (on my scientific advisory board), Margaret Meade (greatest quote), Thomas Clarkson, and Robert Ettinger. Dear Kkeith, You are too kind! I did register however, in lieu of my spending the necessary time to acquaint myself to the CryoNet posting protocol, if you would post Martine'e response (below), I'd be most appreciative and shall continue to sing your praises! Please feel free to use (if possible) the email address I register with: Fondly, Lori Martine's response to Bob: On Sat, Mar 5, 2011 at 8:27 PM, <> wrote: > Hi Lori -- My responses to Dr. Ettinger are in black. Please feel free to > post on Cryonet. > >> > -------- Original Message -------- >> > Subject: Contact with Martine for Ettenger? >> > From: Keith Henson <> >> > Date: Sat, March 05, 2011 11:48 am >> > To: Lori Rhodes <> >> > >> > >> > This showed up on Cryonet today. >> > >> > Keith >> > >> > Message #33421 >> > From: >> > Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2011 00:11:48 -0500 (EST) >> > Subject: Terasem >> > >> > It is interesting, exasperating, and frustrating to read about Terasem and >> > try to gauge its effects, its usefulness or counterproductivity. >> > Thanks for spending the time thinking about Terasem and its efforts. >> > Aside from the fact that all of its leaders appear to be women, members of >> > Terasem seem in many respects to resemble cryonicists, and indeed support >> > for cryonics is one of its specific endeavors. But Terasem also seems to >> > support a whole gamut of futuristic programs including various kinds of >> > transhumanism and especially "mind uploading" (into a digital computer). Your comment makes us smile, because it implies that cryonicist leaders do not appear to be women. I'm thinking Linda Chamberlain and Tanya Jones -- great femaie cryonicist leaders. Anyway, yes, Terasem is gung ho on the future. >> > >> > The evidence seems very clear to me that (1) "mind uploading" into a >> > digital computer will never happen, and (2) support for the concept among >> > cryonicists has a strong tendency to turn off potential supporters of >> cryonics. I have seen no evidence that mind uploading won't happen; to the contrary, I think the evidence strongly supports the hypothesis that it will happen. My support for mind uploading has not affected my support for cryonics in the least. In fact, I continue to increase my efforts for cryonics, most recently with the development of a Brevard County, FL support response group. >> > >> > Some numbers would be useful, but I don't have them. How many belong to >> > Terasem? All humanity belongs to Terasem. It is defined as the collective consciousness of humanity. That would be about 7 billion people. As it says in Truth of Terasem 1.2.2 "Never mistake the organization for Terasem, nor foresake the organization for expedience, convenience or misguidance." > How many of these agree with the uploading notion? Most transhumanists, and almost all Singulatarians, agree with uploading. Many thousands of books have been purchased on these subjects, and many thousands pay to go to these conferences. That is a pretty good guesstimate of those who agree with the notions, plus or minus 50%. > How many give how >> > much money/effort to promotion of Terasem, and how much to cryonics? Millions of people give money and effort to promoting the collective consciousness of humanity, which is Terasem. As per Truth of Terasem 1.2.4 "Extroprian organizations arise from Terasem to outcompete entropy, as do life forms from nurturing environments." I believe Alcor and its other cryonics orgs publish some donation numbers. >> > >> > Any help would be appreciated. I have had no luck trying to communicate >> > with Martine Rothblatt. Robert -- Quoted below is your successful contact with me, and my responses, from March of last year. Best always, and ad astra, of space, time and mind. Hi Robert -- See some responses in Green On Sat, Mar 13, 2010 at 11:03 PM, < <mailto:> > wrote: > Thank you for your kind words and your attention. Your > achievements are impressive, as is the scope of your > further ambitions for yourself and all of us. Ambitions/ideas don't amount to much, if anything, if not implemented. Your achievements are evidenced in the reality of the two good cryonic preservation orgs today, plus their support contractors. > > You have explicitly acknowledged that your hypotheses > are in need of justification, and I am confident that your > sense of realism will tell you that there is a hard row > ahead in overcoming cultural inertia sufficiently for > substantial growth of a rationalist movement. Our hypothesis are standard scientific hypotheses. Some experiments can take a while to consummate, even decades. We have funded Terasem such that it can continue to pursue the mindfile and cellular regeneration experiments for decades until they are proven or disproven. A rationalist movement, per se, is not needed for the pursuit of our scientific research at lifenaut.com <http://lifenaut.com/> > > We need to find some way(s) to exploit our main asset, > which is the capability of maintaining honesty or integrity > even though the truth is not always pleasant and it is often > painful to jettison your indoctrination. Shaw said something > like, "To be in Hell is to drift; to be in Heaven is to steer." Great quote! I have benefited enormously from being mentored by great steersman as Gerard K. O'Neill (space colonies) and Ray Kurzweil. We all share a positivist view that destiny is controllable, if efforts are successful. Persistence is omnipotence. > > I wonder if you are aware of David Pearce, who wrote > The Hedonistic Imperative (hedweb.com <http://hedweb.com/> )? He has gone > furthest of anyone I know, and of course has had very little > following. His goal is the total elimination of suffering for > all animals on earth. I have avoided using the label of > Hedonist for myself, but am reconsidering that. My > philosophy is after all a kind of neohedonism. Fighting > the use of a false characterization of hedonism (simple > devotion to sensual pleasure) could be a helpful wedge. I'm not familiar with him, and in any event I'm not much of a labeler. One very big problem I have is that even though I've benefited from a speed reading course, I am hopelessly awash in things to read that are yet unread. It is probably because I'm at least as much disciplined, if not more, about enjoying life via outdoors activities and time with my loving spice of 28 years than I am in doing 'a book a day.' > > I'm rambling, but the various organizations tied to futurism > and transhumanity seem mostly to have faded, or at least > fallen far short. We need somehow to salvage their assets > and correct their errors. > I don't really take such a dim view. Let's take the WTA for example. It has morphed into H+ and via their very slick monthly publication they are now reaching100x if not 1000x more people than the stodgy WTA or the avante garde Entropy folks ever reached -- although they are reaching them with the same message. In other words, the number of people who are buying transhumanism is vastly greater now than in the 70s - 90s. This is an unmistakeable sign of success. > I don't know how much I'll be able to do, or for how long, > but I think we can use both our similarities and our > differences to good account. Your grasp far exceeds your reach; in this body or not, you are remaking the world via your published ideas and via the other minds your memes have colonized, like mine. I hope you build up a robust mindfile at lifenaut. I'm sure will use our unities and diversities to synergistic effect! > > Thank you again. The thanks is all mine to you. What little I have done is mostly to encourage teams of very talented people to be all they can be -- which is to transcend bodily and mental limitations. I am still pinching myself to have the privilege to exchange thoughts with you. So you know me a little bit better, some of my other heroes are Robert Heinlein, Thomas Starzl (on my scientific advisory board), Margaret Meade (greatest quote), Thomas Clarkson, and Robert Ettinger. > >Robert Ettinger Rate This Message: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=33437