X-Message-Number: 33469 Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2011 20:20:46 -0800 (PST) From: Luke Parrish <> Subject: Personal Identity Challenges Will the personal identity wars never end? Some people claim to be concrete objects. Others claim to be patterns. Both groups appear to think they wake up in the morning, and are able to "survive" for many years at a time despite continuously exchanging atoms with their environment. Both groups are adjusted to the fact that they go through periods of complete unconsciousness, forget entire sequences of events, and change in terms of personality and personal preferences. I'm of a mixed mind about the matter. Part of me is a pattern, and part of me is a concrete object. But I'm not saying "part" in the sense that a cake cut into two pieces is two parts, I mean something more abstract than that. It would be more accurate to say that all of me is a pattern, and all of me is a concrete object -- depending what perspective is being used. Yes there is a valid perspective from which I am a concrete object, and yet this concrete object itself is not "the same" over an extended period of time. My desire for survival hence seems to come more from the pattern side of me, so to speak. What does it mean to be a pattern? Well, a pattern is an abstract, like the color red or a particular temperature. It's a property of matter, an arrangement of a particular nature that can be expected to produce particular results under particular conditions. Those results are not necessarily deterministic -- nondeterministic patterns can also exist, and apparently do. For example diffusion in chemistry is an essentially nondeterministic process which nonetheless follows particular statistical rules quite rigorously. Thus a pattern-identical me would not be guaranteed to have the same thoughts and future as me, even if it were placed in indistinguishable circumstances. This is particularly the case when the butterfly effect is taken into consideration, whereby small changes can have a large impact on chaotic systems. As cryonicists we don't have much cause to fight even if we decide to take different sides of the fence here. Cryonics -- if practiced sufficiently well -- preserves the physical object and the pattern. Yet there are limits to what it can do in both respects. Part of the physical object (including many millions of dendrites, neurons, etc.) will be destroyed, which will lead to the loss of part of the pattern. This is the sobering reality faced regardless of your philosophical position. Rate This Message: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=33469