X-Message-Number: 3444 From: (Thomas Donaldson) Subject: CRYONICS: re #3443 and the Oregon law Date: Fri, 9 Dec 1994 11:25:18 -0800 (PST) Hi, it's Thomas again! I have just read Mr. Coetzee's message #3443. It is simply not true that animals which can survive freezing at high temperatures will clearly be able to repair the entropic damage due to storage for 200 years at those temperatures. We would need an experiment rather than a statement here. If Mr. Coetzee can tell of such a MULTICELLULAR VERTEBRATE such as a frog which has IN FACT remained frozen for 200 years and recovered, that would be very interesting. The fact that bacteria can recover means very little here. Furthermore, sperm or eggs frozen for long term storage are frozen in LN, not just below 0 C. ABOUT THE OREGON LAW: I was very interested to learn that it had passed. Joe Havlena, in Australia, sent me a copy of the law and some of the Cryonet commentary. From reading the exact provisions of the law, however, it's clear that many situations important for cryonics simply don't fall under it. The law allows assisted suicide only when the disease will kill in 6 months, and furthermore requires that the patient administer the suicide drug to him/herself. These restrictions alone make it very unlikely that any cryonics patient with Alzheimer's could take advantage of this law. Some brain tumors do act very quickly, but after the required waiting times (plus the practical problems of obtaining doctor's assent, etc) it's not clear at all that patients with these tumors will be able to administer any suicide drugs to themselves by the time permission to do so comes through (I'm thinking of oligodendrocytomas, particularly). Furthermore, multiple strokes and brain tumors in general act slowly, with the effect that by the time a doctor can state (honorably) that a patient has only 6 months to live, that patient will not be able to administer any suicide drugs to him/herself. Clearly this law was not written or passed with cryonics in mind. It may not even have been written with the real, practical circumstances which normally occur in dying patients in mind. What to do? It's way too premature to start thinking of setting up a cryonics facility in Oregon. It may help to obtain, prior to any need, a list of doctors in Oregon willing to write the required forms... and the final prescription. But real cases in which we can use this are likely to be rare. If the court cases against this law fail, what we will have will be the thin end of a wedge, opening up a little crack. Even though we can't expect to get through that crack now, it may eventually widen, especially if we work to widen it. Long long life, Thomas Donaldson Rate This Message: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=3444