X-Message-Number: 369
From att!compuserve.com!72320.1642 Sun Jun 30 22:12:40 EDT 1991
Date: 30 Jun 91 22:02:52 EDT
From: Steve Bridge <>
To: KEVIN <>
Subject: Reply to cryonics #362
Message-Id: <"910701020251 72320.1642 EHK36-1"@CompuServe.COM>
TO: KEVIN
Reply to Mark Kaminsky:
I am the Midwestern Coordinator for Alcor. These questions have
indeed been asked before; but they will be asked over and over, and each
time they deserve an answer. Kevin has previously treated the insurance
question so well that I hope he will send you a copy of his message. My
answer will be shorter.
* 1) Insurance.
* At one point it mentions that someone in their 20s/30s can get
* $41k of life insurance for $45/month. Is this a typo or are they
* talking about some whole life/annuity plan. Otherwise I expect
* it should be $45/year. My current SBLI for $100k is about
* $110/year (age 33 non-smoker). Also I've heard of $250k term
* life plans for about $450/year (guaranteed rate for 20 years).
* What do most folks do? Term or some sort of term/annuity combo?
The $45 per month is indeed for a whole life or universal life policy.
Term insurance is acceptable for starting cryonics coverage, but only if it
is "guaranteed convertible" to whole life. Term insurance generally runs
out after a specific time, usually well before you need it. If you are
trying to protect a family, it is rational to buy term, since your children
will be on their own before the insurance coverage runs out. If you are
trying to get suspended, you need coverage that still works when you are
old. A term/annuity combo is a good idea financially, but it takes an
amount of discipline that few people have.
Also, whole life and universal life policies can be set up to build
increasing death benefits as the policy continues. It is possible that
future costs of suspension, repair, and resuscitation will be high and
that extra funding above the minimum may be the difference between early
resuscitation and staying in the tank another few decades. It is better
to be safe than sorry.
Finally, most whole life/universal policies can be designed to be "paid
up" in a few years. The death benefit would not increase without further
payments; but you are protected if you become too ill to work and make the
payments.
* 2) Organ Donor + Neurosuspension?
* I currently carry an organ donor card because it's better to give
* a burn victim my skin than to bury it, same for the other organs.
* Now that I'm learning about the cryonics option I think I rather keep
* them. But what about the rest of the body in the case of a
* neurosuspension? In the book Alcor says they cremate it. Could it be
* used for organ donations? Sounds to me like a better idea than burning
* it.
* The organ donation process is obviously not paid for by the donor.
* I assume it's paid for by the receiver's health insurance or some
* non-profit group. Wouldn't this go a long way to pay for the
* neurosuspension up to the point for the liquid Nitrogen? Since there
* would be an incentive for hospitals to do the beginnings of a
* neurosuspension (the only way you allow them to get the organs
* is if they cooperate) could this be a way to cut down on "Standby"?
* I understand this would not be the case for old or AIDS patients
* since their organs are not wanted, but it is an idea for accident/
* massive heart attack victims since these both make for the best
* organ donors and the worst response times for starting suspension.
If you sign up for cryonics, you'll have to burn your organ donor
card, Mark. Almost every state requires proof of brain death (the brain
as pudding) before harvesting organs for transplant. If you want someone
coming back in the future who is more than a simple clone of yourself,
then "brain death" is a definite no-no.
Alcor requires a full body even for a neurosuspension patient in order
to use the blood vessels of the heart for blood washout and perfusion with
cryoprotective chemicals. Even if the suspension procedure were reduced
in time from its present 12-hour minimum, the chemicals given by Alcor to
reduce blood clotting and to prevent various chemical changes would play
havoc with transplants. Physicians have told us there is no way they would
even consider a transplant from a suspension patient.
There is also an incorrect assumption in your comments. There is no
way that money from the receiving patient's health insurance could benefit
the donating patient. That would be purchasing organs, which is illegal
by federal law.
* 3) Spouse doesn't approve.
* One of the problems I have with cryonics is that my wife doesn't
* approve of it. She has some quasi-religious beliefs and also
* wants a grave site to visit/share, but mainly the thought of cryonics
* leaves her cold (sorry - I guess you heard that a thousand times).
* I am working on her. I rather go together, but if not that, I'd
* go alone - if able. Anyone have a similar problem that they have
* overcome? A directly intellectual argument won't work with her -
* it's got to "feel" good.
* If I de-animate before her (which is the most likely), I assume that,
* as next of kin, what she says pretty much goes (the dead having no
* rights). Thus it is mostly pointless to proceed with membership
* without her consent. Is this so? I speak here of just my
* suspension - I'd of course respect her wishes with respect to her
* own body.
The spouse problem can be difficult, but it does not have to be deadly.
First, your spouse only has authority over your remains if you have made no
other legal provisions. Alcor's paperwork includes an "Authorization of
Anatomical Donation" in which you specifically donate your remains to Alcor.
This is a legal document which supersedes your wife's rights. If you are
still nervous about it, you can appoint some other friend locally as the
temporary custodian of your remains with the specific instructions to turn
them over to Alcor. Obviously, all of this must be communicated to your
wife with the message that, yes, you love her, but this responsibility is
being given to someone else.
Incidentally, in California the dead DO have certain rights. The
California state constitution contains a specific provision that people
have the absolute right to designate the disposition of their human
remains. Since this law can only take effect upon the legal death of the
individual, the person continues to have this right until the disposition
is completed. A California judge has ruled that cryonics is covered under
this law and that the person's rights CONTINUE as long as they are in
suspension.
As far as persuading your wife to become less hostile to cryonics or
even cooperative: that is a horse of a different temperature indeed. In
my fifteen years in cryonics, I have seen situations like this go both
ways. Religious feelings can be overcome. In fact, Alcor has several
members who are Christian, but who believe that staying alive is the
best way to continue to serve God. Few religions believe that death
is something we should consciously seek. Almost all Christian religions
believe in medical care. Explain to your wife that, just like we call an
ambulance to take someone to the hospital when he has a heart attack --and
that NOT to do so would be immoral, cryonics is an ambulance ride to the
future, where a more sophisticated medical technology may be able to save
your life.
A Catholic priest has given another moral perspective on this, based
on the fact that Catholics consider suicide a mortal sin. Assume a patient
in a hospital, faced with an operation which will likely save his life. An
argument could be made, says the priest, that to REFUSE that operation
would be a willful seeking of death, i.e. suicide. In the same way, if
cryonics could be shown to work someday, then NOT to choose cryonics might
also be considered a willful seeking of death. Interesting to think about,
anyway.
Most people who first hear about cryonics are actually not really
worried about religious or moral issues, although they may USE them as a
defense. They just think that the concept of being frozen is too icky
for words. And they assume that the people involved in it must be total
fruitcakes or cultists. It is strictly emotional. The "icky" part can only
be overcome through education, such as reminding her that a lot of people
would find open-heart surgery pretty "icky" if they actually watched it
being performed and that a lot of people still find heart transplants a
deeply disgusting idea. As she begins to understand the purposes of
cryonics, maybe she will see that being buried is a lot more disgusting.
The "people" part can sometimes be overcome by letting her meet other
cryonicists, most of whom are nice people and not fruitcakes. (Choose
carefully, though; ANY group of people, from the American Bar Association
to a religious convention will have its share of neurotics. Cryonics is
no exception, and it certainly has more than its share of argumentative
iconoclasts. Women on the average do not like the company of argumentative
iconoclasts.)
Try introducing her to other women involved in cryonics. Kevin Brown
knows very well at least one very pleasant woman on the East Coast (hi,
Beth!) and there are others, of course. Let her see some of the tapes of
television shows about cryonics. The Phil Donahue Show featuring Thomas
Donaldson convinced some of my friends that cryonics was more acceptable,
and it helped to break down the opposition of the mother of a close friend
(the friend is now signing up). Since you are in the Boston area, I assume
you know Eric Klein; I believe he has some tapes.
The biggest warning here is to take it a step at a time. It is hard
for most people to contemplate THE FUTURE all in one dose. You have to go
slowly. Marc Stiegler called it "The Gentle Seduction" in his short story
in _Analog Magazine_ (March, 1989?).
Of course, none of this may work. Cryonics has broken up many
relationships (as have arguments about religion and other sensitive, life-
affecting subjects). You may have to decide at some point (as cold-
blooded as this may sound [pun semi-intended]): Do I love her enough to
die with her? Or, Does she love ME enough to help me live?
I hope it won't get to that. Keep talking, both with her and with us.
Good luck.
Steve Bridge
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