X-Message-Number: 3705
Date: Wed, 18 Jan 1995 22:08:05 -0500
From: "Bruce Zimov" <>
Subject: SCI.CRYONICS: Uploading

The point is that at the point of termination of one of the
subjective instances, there is no way that instance's subjectivity will
continue.  The copy, however similar, is just a brother.
You don't think that they are telepathically linked do you??
You said:
>.....................................................An outside
>observer might be able to distinguish between the things having
>the experience but that is of no importance, it's subjective
>feelings were interested in and want to survive. 
I'm glad you've finally abandoned the Turing test.
>........................................... If two subjective
>simultaneous experiences are identical and running in parallel
>then there is only one subjective experience. 
They are not numerically identical, if they are in 2 different
places at the same time, and if they are experiencing anything
they will be perspectively different.
Two hydrogen atoms one at A and one a B at the same time where
A and B are sufficiently distant in terms of space and time to not be 
affected by the Uncertainty Principle, as we would have in the case
of 2 otherwise identical brains across the room from each other, are
obviously different in that they occupy 2 different places at the same
time, and if they were awake and perceptive, their subjective experiences
would by virtue of their being at A and B always be perspectivally
different. In fact, there would be no point at which their subjective
experiences would be the same, even if they start out in the same state.
You misunderstood me a few posts ago when I mentioned that the
sleeping body is the ideal conduit.  The point is important enough
that I should elaborate.  Without knowing what the subjective
circuit is, we can only speculate. Right now, I picture it as
some sort of attractor, supported by chemical and physical 
conditioning of the attractor's modulation, c.f. Lorenz or Henon
attractor.  Specifically, try to imagine how intolerable your
subjective state would be without the inner ear balancing mechanism
which is largely an external fluid dynamical system. Intense 
vertigo! Not much fun.  There are 2 main features of subjectivity
that I regard as important: 1) We're awake, 2) Our senses are integrated.
In fact, if we imagine peeling away senses from the integration, its
hard to imagine that our subjectivity is anything but a combination
of telepresence and sensor fusion supported by some unspecified
attractor state better known as the wake state.  I am sometimes
tempted to identify my subjectivity as my brain's wake state.
In this context, the sleeping body is the ideal conduit to TRANSFER
what is important in survival from one day to the next, or whatever
your sleep cycle happens to be.  Its ideal because it works for this 
purpose, though the design of our brain/body is not ideal for 
infinite survival, or even transfinite survival:)  There is no
better conduit, no better temperature for the conduit, no better
reactive state that we know of. In a very natural rhythm, it stores
and reanimates, stores and reanimates.
Here is why uploading the subjective circuit is important. Suppose you 
could not upload the subjective circuit, but suppose that everyone's
subjective circuit was qualitatively identical, but not numerically
identical. One might get the bright idea of uploading just the memories
in a kind of memory swap between the 2 individuals. This is Locke's
example.  In this case, rather than being transferred to the other
body, you would in fact, be staying in your own body and just thinking
you were the other person, even to the point of believing you had 
transferred since that's how it seemed to you.  This is the case
of keeping the identity that matters with the subjective circuit.
I think if you clear your mind introspectively you can feel that
your memories aren't contributing to your subjective state. By
clearing introspectively I mean eliminating all intrusive thoughts
and recollections meditatively, and using sensor deprivation to 
suppress object recognition.
Bruce Zimov

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