X-Message-Number: 3721
Date: Sat, 21 Jan 1995 23:11:46 -0500
From: "Bruce Zimov" <>
Subject: SCI.CRYONICS: Uploading

I'm going to take the Ettinger route and avoid point by point
comments on everything we disagree on or misunderstand each other
on. Most of your points about interpretation are pretty old. See
As far as identity goes, you've created a false choice between
subjectivity as 2 objects, or as one process "written" twice.
At the distances and momenta of 2 brains across the room from
each other, the Quantum effects are not going to bail you out
of the logical problem of identity. Plug the numbers into the
equations and see for yourself.
We exist now without an external interpreter, if we are only
information then an external interpreter is required to "read"
the processes.
Since the definition of qualitative and numerical identity has
been asked more than once, I reproduce it here from Parfit
"There are two kinds of sameness, or identity.  I and my
 Replica are qualitatively identical, or exactly alike.
 But, we may not be numerically identical, or one and the 
 same person.  Similarly, two white billiard balls are
 not numerically but may be qualitatively identical.  If
 I paint one of these balls red, it will not now be 
 qualitatively identical to itself yesterday.  But the
 red ball that I see now and the white ball that I painted
 red are numerically identical. They are one and the same
  We might say, of someone, 'After his accident, he is no
 longer the same person'.  This is a claim about both kinds
 of identity. We claim that he, the same person, is not now
 the same person. This is not a contradiction. We merely
 mean that this person's character has changed.  This
 numerically identical person is now qualitatively different."
As for the Turing test, EEG tests can be more indicative of conscious
brain activity than behaviour, and I believe we should develop
EEG-like techniques to apply to computer neural networks to
measure their collective effects.  I have done this with 
small neural networks and have identified epileptiform and
non-REM sleep states, but no wake states, or REM sleep.
The negative result so far is either due to scale, viz.
too few neurons, or organization, i.e. less randomly connected.
I also think that EEG traces should be run on brains in
cryonic suspension to try to detect the existence of
any super-conducting eddy currents, their half-life, and
path at those low temperatures, to either measure
degradation over time, or detect low-temperature brain
activity due to electron-coupling in Cooper pairs.
Bruce Zimov

Rate This Message: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=3721