X-Message-Number: 3730 Date: 23 Jan 95 04:02:57 EST From: "Clifton G. Clue Jr" <> Subject: CRYONICS Problems in cryonics This message if fromMike Darwin (please ignore header). Actually, Bob and I are in very close agreement, believe it or not! I think we are just looking at the problem differently. Bob has perhaps not spent many hours on the phone with relatives or patients who are experiencing distress as a result of cryonics. Nor, perhaps has Bob seen marriages and long term relationships torn apart because of cryonics. The fact that these thing happen is NOT (and it has never been my stated position to argue that they DO) constitute a reason NOT to do cryonics. *Rather, what I am am saying now and have said in the past is that I believe the FACT that these things happen should be acknowleged SO THAT WE CAN MAKE CRYONICS BETTER! They are not an argument AGAINST cryonics. Bob's position seems to be a little (and only a little) analogous to pharmaceutical manufacturer who has marketed a GOOD drug (i.e., good therapeutic/negative effects ratio) objecting strenuously and responding defensively when some serious side effects are brought up -- along with a plea to find ways to adresss them, so that the patient population using the drug can benefit more, or so that the benefitting patient population can expand. Obviously, I believe cryonics offers a net good in many cases. But it has caused and continues to cause some real harm both to some patients and families of patients. I believe much of this harm is avoidable and in my book on Standby I spend most of my time talking about ways to decrease this harm or prevent in it some cases. A major error some cryonicists make is in prosletyzing their families and in the APPROACH they take to negotiatioing cryonics into their family lives. Providing good, non-threatening and nonadvocating video materials to EDUCATE and help restore some sense of control to the next of kin (and relieve or reduce their anxieties) is a critical first step. Bob points out the positive risk/benefit ratio of cryonics: a chance at immortality vs. certain oblivion. Generally I agree with this assessment. But a lot of people don't. Including moi on bad days! Clearly the several people in cryonics who have comitted suicide, some in very brain compromising ways found themselves (however momentarily and perhaps incorrectly) no longer agreeing that even being ALIVE is worthwhile. This is what depression is all about. I found Stodolsky's commentsabout depressives seeing reality more accurately of great interest. I read a summary of the first study in that series about 6-10 years ago in PSYCHOLOGY TODAY and have followed subsequent work. It DOES appear that depressed people view realiy more realistically and more negatively than nondepressed people. What natural selection seems to have decided is if you want success you have tol lie and sell the sizzle!; something any salesman could told us anyway... So the real question is (at least on somedays for me) Why go on living? Which brain state: optimistic or hopeless is the REAL one????? This a place where reason can guide us, and compassionate friends, and where Bob himself has done so much good with his positive views of life as expressed in both his books and in his many other writings. Still, I think there is a place for people who DO see a serious problem and work to fix it. I see myself in that catergory. Yes, I am no longer overwhelmed with the pure goodness of cryonics as I was when younger. But on the other hand I am more motivated to try IMPROVING the product both in terms of ultimate technology and the immediate short-term problems I perceive. I think Bob would agree that BOTH of those things are worthwhile goals. And yes, I am aware that presenting cryonics as "less than perfect" in terms of its short-term or immediate effects exposes us to the risk of more *effective* outside criticism. So be it. I don't think we deal with problems by sweeping them under the rug. Finally Cosenza says I violate patient patient confidences. I do not. That is ONE of the functions of CASE ID #'s. As to the future, if Cosenza is implying that there be NO discussion of case histories because it violates (or could) violate the privacy of revived patients, then he is mistaken. The ability to discuss case histories by reliable identifiers is critical and, in the Alcor Consent For Cryonic Suspension the patient not only acknowledges that such will be done, s/he further agrees to take on the risk of far more invasive risks and losses of privacy which may occur as a result of cryopreservation. Also, I fail to see how the "tragic deaths" of two Alcor patients are being exploited by me. I have discussed similar "tragedies" such as suicide, homicide and HIV in similar contexts not involving Alcor. Any cryonics organization that operates for long will have it share of such cases. There is no shame in this (and as my Mother used to say in reference to being poor "no great pride either.") It is just a fact of life. Frankly, I do not see a depressed person killing themselves as any more tragic than someone who dies of cancer. Both represent end-stages of disease processes which both now and in the future (obviously to a greater extent in the future) will be interruptable and reversible. As to Cosenza's point abot the 5 members who listed serious psychiatric illness or depression; my point was that MOST DID NOT!!!!! Those five people are to be commemded for their honestly and their understanding of mental illness: being no more ashamed of it than say a bum leg or kidney disease. In fact, if more people thought of and reacted to mental illness in that way (all kinds, not just depression) the world would be a better place, and there would be a hell of a lot fewer ragged people in misery on the streets -- or for that matters in prisons:prisons which (in this country at least) contained countless people who are ILL rather than evil. And, to set matters straight: I know of people in ACS, CryoCare and in the UK cryonics groups who suffer from mental illness. My point was NOT to point the finger at Alcor, but rather to point out that this is a common, serious and underreported problem and one not at all historically well dealt with in cryonis groups. I would also point out that ANY issue of PERFUSION LIFE or Amsect's technical magazine contains a large ad EVERY MONTH offering Amsect (the perfusionists professional organization) sponsored, 24-hour a day, 365-day-a year psychiatric/crisis help to any member perfusionist who needs it. Why? Because Amsect realized a long time ago that perfusion was a job with high burnout, depression, and suicide rates. They DID something about it and my off the cuff understanding is that they cut their rate of serious psychiatric events (including major depressive episodes, divorce, and suicides) by better than 70%. No cryonics organization is being "fingered here." Finally, I did not get and have been unable to download Mike Riskin's first message which I would very much like to see. That part of my Cryonet file is missing along with the tail-end of the preceding message. I would also say I agree with Riskin's assessment in his second message: about lithium and about almost everything else he had to say. In fact, I put the number of people in the US suffering from some kind of psychiatric disorder (most leaving them "functional") at better than half. Considering how complex the brain is, the abusive and inappropriate ways many people are raised, and the kooky ideas they are often programmed with: this number if it isaccurate is astonishingly low! Mike Darwin Rate This Message: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=3730