X-Message-Number: 3741 Date: Tue, 24 Jan 1995 22:00:16 -0800 From: John K Clark <> Subject: SCI.CRYONICS Uploading -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- "Bruce Zimov" <> Wrote: >if you don't explore every possibility you might miss something. That's true ,but even if I live an infinite number of years ( countable infinite that is, I'm not sure about the higher infinities) I'll never be able to try every possibility so it's necessary to use judgment. >Also, a flat line is defined by the sensitivity of your instruments. Sounds to me that you'd never accept a negative result so I see no reason to perform the experiment. >First, its [Exchange Forces] not the foundation [ 0f physics]. >Second, its not a direct consequence of Leibniz's >theory, [The Identity Of Indiscernibles] Heinz R Pagels was associate professor of theoretical physics at Rockefeller University and president and CEO of the New York Academy of Sciences. I quote from his wonderful modern classic " The Cosmic Code" , a very rare thing, a book of physics that's almost poetry. "Not only are the quantum particles such as electrons and photons absolutely identical but the consequence of this identity is the existence of a new kind of force between them. The Identity of indiscernibles has a consequence, a force! Without these new forces, called exchange forces, chemistry and atoms as we know them could not exist, we would not be here." >Their non-locality is described by Bell's theorem. All I am >saying is that at the scale of 2 brains across the room from >each other, quantum effects do not come into play I don't think this has much to do with consciousness but according to Bell's Theorem two particles could be on opposite sides of the universe , not just the room, and still influence each other, instantly. >Spatial location does not apply to mental entities. [...] and >so the answer "somewhere within your skull" is a reasonable one. I seem to detect a contradiction. >That's one reason why we freeze heads. We freeze heads because mind is what brains do. My brain is important to me only because right now it's the only thing that does me. This need not always be the case. To say that consciousness is in our head is like saying speed is in a particular racing car and if we just look close enough we'll find it lurking someplace in the machinery, thus another car moving at the exact same velocity must nevertheless have a different speed because the same speed can't be in two places at once . Obviously this doesn't work , I realize speed is just a scalar and mind has a huge number of variables but if it doesn't work in the simple case making it more complex won't help. >Two white billiard balls, identical in every way except their >position. Now, you wouldn't say there is one billiard ball >there would you? Who cares, your talking about objects, again, and that has nothing to do with my subjective experience. If we are what matter is and not what matter does why do we remain the same even though our atoms change. I stand by my ideas but I may have been a bit unfair to Parfit. Max More tells me Parfit is a very bright fellow who's written some good stuff so I may have judged him too harshly based on one brief quote. >What if you switched them? Of course, you couldn't tell them >apart. But, if they were subjective and you were one, you >would have moved to the other position! And you'd know it. How? The only way we know anything about the outside world is through our senses. if the position of your external sense inputs was changed you'd know it , if just the position of your brain was changed you'd never know it. An upload might not know or care where his brain was, it might be distributed in computers all over the planet, he'd only be interested where his senses were. John K Clark -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.i iQCzAgUBLyXjzn03wfSpid95AQFG5wTtEPHCExYc1sWupcVojKFtFEvAXt9uzuJI 7Z9kS8bxI65fa6EiC6HYOaV2DaqKlWHY0KoLaGyM0YRdGg5zurPeVYeHTyt0j3xZ BX+Tgq3NPwQsQGc3AjsiKTSa8BXLDGNf02OngtOWG+mqAfaTxmzDhWWv1JQFNjDB jTQDdCMHXqEsmxo4WQczvvLdATDi2wkpNZIfnVtTVhJd12QivZI= =TJ+W -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- Rate This Message: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=3741