X-Message-Number: 3741
Date: Tue, 24 Jan 1995 22:00:16 -0800
From: John K Clark <>
Subject: SCI.CRYONICS Uploading


"Bruce Zimov" <> Wrote:

	  >if you don't explore every possibility you might miss something.
That's true ,but even if I live an infinite number of years 
( countable infinite that is, I'm not sure about the higher
infinities) I'll never be able to try every possibility so it's
necessary to use judgment. 
	 >Also, a flat line is defined by the sensitivity of your instruments.

Sounds to me that you'd never accept a negative result so I see
no reason to perform the experiment.
	    >First, its  [Exchange Forces] not the foundation [ 0f physics]. 
	    >Second, its not a direct  consequence of Leibniz's
	    >theory, [The Identity Of Indiscernibles] 
Heinz R Pagels was associate professor of theoretical physics at
Rockefeller University and president and CEO of the New York
Academy of Sciences. I quote from his wonderful modern classic "
The Cosmic Code" , a very rare thing, a book of physics that's
almost poetry.
  "Not only are the quantum particles such as electrons and photons
   absolutely identical but the consequence of this identity is the
   existence of a new kind of force between them. The Identity of
   indiscernibles has a consequence, a force! Without these new
   forces, called exchange forces, chemistry and atoms as we know
   them could not exist, we would not be here."  

	    >Their non-locality is described by Bell's theorem. All I am
	    >saying is that at the scale of 2 brains across the room from
	    >each other, quantum effects do not come into play
I don't think this has much to do with consciousness  but
according to Bell's Theorem  two particles could be on opposite
sides of the universe , not just the  room, and still influence
each other, instantly.
	   >Spatial location does not apply to mental entities. [...] and
	   >so the answer "somewhere  within your skull" is a reasonable one.   
I seem to detect a contradiction.
	  >That's one reason  why we freeze heads.
We freeze heads because mind is what brains do. My brain is
important to me only because right now it's the only thing that
does me. This need not always be the case. To say that
consciousness is in our head is like saying speed is in a
particular racing car and if we just look close enough we'll 
find it lurking someplace in the machinery, thus  another car
moving at the exact same velocity must nevertheless have a
different speed because the same speed can't be in two places at
once . Obviously this doesn't work , I realize speed is just a
scalar and mind has a huge number of variables but if it doesn't
work in the simple case making it more complex won't help.
	  >Two white billiard balls, identical in every way except their
	  >position.  Now, you wouldn't say there is one billiard ball
	  >there would you? 
Who cares, your talking about objects, again, and that has
nothing to do with my subjective experience. If we are what
matter is and not what matter does why do we remain the same
even though our atoms change.
I stand by my ideas but I may have been a bit unfair to Parfit.
Max More tells me Parfit is a very bright fellow who's written
some good stuff so I may have judged him too harshly based on
one brief quote.
	 >What if you switched them? Of course, you couldn't tell them
	 >apart.  But, if they were subjective and you were one, you          
	 >would have moved to the other position! And you'd know it.
How? The only way we know anything about the outside world is
through our senses. if the position of your external sense
inputs was  changed you'd know it , if just the position of your
brain was changed  you'd never know it. An upload might not know
or care where his brain was, it might be distributed in
computers all over the planet, he'd only be interested where his
senses were.
				       John K Clark      

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