X-Message-Number: 3957 Date: Mon, 6 Mar 1995 21:06:17 -0700 (GMT) From: Robert Horley <> Subject: Non Destructive Biostasis In My Time I've been following this list for a few months now and in this my first posting I'd like to ask the group a number of questions. Some time back Ben Best posted the following thread on high pressure cryonics, but there was very little follow up to the thread, perhaps because the list members were distracted by a flame war going on at the time. > From: (Ben Best) > Subject: High Pressure Cryonics > Organization: CryoNet Forwarding Service > Date: Fri, 30 Sep 1994 15:57:04 GMT > I have recently returned from Europe, where I spent some time > with Klaus Reinhard, who is Germany's only signed-up cryonicist > (he is an Alcor member). (There was another German Alcor member, > but he terminated membership when he learned of the > Alcor/CryoCare split.) Klaus has a friend, Nikolaus George > Hergenhahn, who has training in physical chemistry. With Klaus > Reinhard as translator, N-G Hergenhahn suggested to me that high > pressure may be the best means of eliminating freezing damage. > The following table for water inspired his thinking: > Freezing Point > Pressure Temperature (H20) > (atmospheres) (degrees Celcius) > 1 0 > 1,000 -10 > 2,045 -22 > 3,420 -17 > 6,160 0 > 7,390 10 > 9,800 25 > 13,970 50 > 36,500 175 > The relevance of this table is that as pressure is increased, > the freezing point of water falls to a low of -22 Celcius at > 2,045 atmospheres, and then increases to a +175 degrees Celcius > at 36,500 atmospheres. This table is inaccurate in the sense > that I have taken values from different water-phase tables, but > that should not matter, since the relevant figures are those at > -22 Celcius and the freezing > point temperatures at very high pressures. > Hergenhahn suggests application of about 2,000 atmospheres to > a brain at a temperature of about -20 Celcius (above freezing > point) and then sudden increase in pressure to about 20,000 > atmospheres in less than one second. Since the heat of fusion > for water is 79 cal/gm, a temperature rise to +60 Celcius would > not alter the rapid conversion of the brain to a solid state -- > WITHOUT ice crystal formation. (The heat of fusion might > actually be lower for a brain than for pure water.) (I was told > that pressures of 100,000 atmospheres are used in the synthesis > of artificial diamonds.) My question is, does anyone have access to a small high pressure chamber, so that this idea could be checked out? The initial tests could be done with some small mammalian cell samples , just to see how they handle the sudden pressure change. Also has anyone has anyone looked at the detailed water-phase tables for the pressure range 1 atm to 0 atm to see if there is any kind of window of opportunity there for vitrification? Since I hope the aim of cryonics research is as damage free entry into biostasis as possible, have the experiments been done with the 300 plus different cell types in the human body to check their differing tolerance to freezing/thawing? As a reductionist at heart I would think this would be the first step, and once problems are solved or at least identified here, then we could move forwards to more complex systems such as whole organs, followed finally by whole bodies. This brings me to my final question for now, which is a follow up on the following posting by Mr Bozzonetti > Date: 09 Jan 95 13:10:57 EST > From: yvan Bozzonetti <> >...deleted humor... > One part of the inner cell scafolding is made from myosine > fibers; Most organels inside the cell are anchored to these > fibers. Such fibers work as extended spring and need some > energy input to remain in this elongated state. When cells are > cooled down, Adenosine TriPhosphate (ATP) the energy currency of > the cell is no more produced or used, so the spings shrink, > pulling down all cell element the ones against the others. The > destructive effect is very big and reduces the cell survival > potential. > Some poisons, found in snake venons or toad skin secretion, for > example the well known curare exploited by Amazon's indians, are > muscular paralyser working on the molecule of interest here. > With them, even without energy input, even at low temperature, > the fibers don't retract. > Adding curare to a cell culture before cooling may be a > important element in the survival process. Who will experiment > this ? It could be far more useful to do it that killing one > more dog. I know his humor and the strangeness of some of his postings really infuriate some members of this list, but could he be onto something here or at least be pointing us in the right direction. Referring to my previous question, shouldn't we be trying to figure out how individual cells are damaged by freezing even when ice crystals are not formed and how this damage can be prevented? As an aside, is it against net etiquette to make a request for funds on a list for experiments dealing directly with the topic of the list? Especially in a field like cryonics which is starved of official funding. Because if the objective of an experiment is clearly explained and a description is given of how the money would be used...renting of equipment etc ... I for one wouldn't be upset or adverse to occasionally making a small contribution. However, please don't interpret this as the go ahead for unsolicited requests for funds being sent to my mailbox. Sorry if anyone thinks I have wasted their time, but I think these questions and many similar need to be asked. Cryonics seems to have locked itself into the idea that nano-technology will come to the rescue... However I think that this like saying we shouldn,t experiment with new ways of space travel because anti-gravity is just around the corner. If nano-technology comes in time lets use it, but if it doesn,t lets do it some other way. Robert Horley (The impossible just takes a little longer) Rate This Message: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=3957