X-Message-Number: 4020
From: Trygve Bauge <>
Subject: Let us stick to the facts here!
Date: Sat, 18 Mar 1995 06:11:13 +0100 (GMT+0100)


 said:

> Mr. Coetzee has demonstrated that he is just as out of touch with
> reality as Mr. Bauge.
>
Wait a minute, Mr. Metzger, who are you and what are your reasons
for resorting to false and deragatory attacks below the belt?
Those of us who want to improve upon cryonics will hardly see any
reason for a mud fight, so why is it that some people then insist upon
posting flames? Is there a deliberate attempt to cause animosity
and conflict? And why?

For the record, I am rational, and always have been.
My other grand father (not the one we froze) was a  well known
psychiatrist who in his time was in charge of some of Norways
larger mental institutions. 
I am not about to let anyone falsly attack the soundness of my mind.
When it comes to cryonics,
I go to great length to be honest and open
and to find and apply the most valid verification routines
before claiming anything.

I think I can document that everything I did was systematic,
thought out, ethical and rational.
The fact that my mother is an alcoholic, who as a result has
severe problems when she drinks, does not in any way reflect
negatively upon me, and I object to any underhanded attempt
at falsely placing guilt (or mental problems) by assosiation
as was done in several posts in a recent issue of cryonet.

Let me also thank John de Rivaz 
for the support:
> 
> If what Trygve Bauge writes is true, 

It is.
While the county of Boulder has always appointed attorneys
to represent my mother when she got into mental problems,
the judge in the town of Nederland deliberately insisted upon
treating her as rational, when she was not,
and thus to not grant her legal assistance, which says more about what 
length the administration in Nederland would go to, to
try to shut down my cryonic venture.

> Your first revolution was about representation. 
> It is time you had another.

Repeating the same revolution would help a lot too,
The INS does not respect even as simple means as the right
to trial by Jury. A reactionary protectionist counter revolution
has slowly replaced the Jeffersonian revolution. 
What is needed is more respect for universal unalienable rights,
including the right to individual autonomy, entrepreneurial liberty 
including freedom of travel, trade and contract, 
more respect for private property, universal application of the
highest standards of due process,
and more balances to force government officials to be rights respecting.
A special prosecutor to assist vitims of government officials in
prosecuting the latter, and more wide spread use of the public
defenders office, would  be a start.

> I agree this appears to have nothing to do with cryonics, but it 
> does affect any frontier activity, and if you Americans let it go on then 
> you will end up a third world backwater.

Some sort of constitutional protection for cryonics (at least on the
state level as the first step)
might be a solution, after all there is already constitutional
protection for the exercise of religion.
And this would protect cryonics against any onslaught by excited
politicians.


> Bob Smart <> said:
> Let's see if I have this straight, now:

No, you do not have it straight!

> Bauge enters the US illegally; 

No I entered on a valid visa,
Which was actualy extended by the help of then Senator 
George McGovern's office.
However I came to the conclusion that protectionism is a threat
to life extension, and that what is needed is another civil rights 
movement to establish respect for universal unalienable rights:
To extend life we have to overcome death, this will take
lots of scientific, medical and entrepreneurial break throughs.
Historically and logically individuals can best maximize values
in a free society. Life extension and entrepreneurial liberty 
go and in hand. The only way to reach high goals is to make one's
path obey one's goal. And that is what I have been doing:
Proudly and openly practicing entrepreneurial liberty, and
refusing to comply with passport, visa and work permit requirements.
This I have done in the open, and I fought the INS in court
for about 8 years until I got deported, when the local INS
director decided to violate my right to appeal to the US supreme
court, and to kick me out in violation of my appeal rights.

> contracts to provide cryonics services which
> he was grossly unprepared to provide; 
I had one short term 6 month contract with one client:
to store his friend in dry ice, and that contract came about
after I tried to talk him out of it. However he was in a desperate
situation himself and needed some interim storage until
he could get his own facility going out east which was his plan.
Incidentially the contract called for my client to provide
a two person electrical freezer that we would have also maintained
dry ice in. However the client did not provide the freezer
and as an emergency solution we rewrote the contract and 
I ended up with two people on dry ice.
I was prepared to provide the 6 month dry ice
storage that I contracted for, And the interim dry ice box
has actually been maintained for much longer than that.
Thus in no way have I contracted for anything I was unprepared to provide.

> botches it, creating a scandal that--if
> the media were paying much attention--would discredit the whole concept of
> cryonics...
Why do you turn the situation completely on its head?
I didn't botch it any more than the jews bothched it in World War II
Why do you attack the victims of government transgressions, and not
the government transgressors?
My action has not been a scandal at all,
There is nothing to this case that I can't proudly defend
under the circumstances that has been sprung on me.
And the press HAS paid an enormous amount of attention, 
most of it positive and supportive. It is still paying attention.
I have been open about everything with the press all along
and from long before the story broke.
And if it hadn't been for the support from the press the
local town administration would have cremated my grand father
a long time ago. 
My design of a fire, earthquake and storm proof main building
a technology that could be of benefit not just to cryonisists
but to many other people as well,
and my attempt to defend life, liberty and property against
those who violate such rights, have won me a lot of support,
which leads me to question what your motivation is
for your distorted attack on me and what I have been doing.
Trying to do one's best when one is under a severe and unjust attack.
is better than rolling over and doing nothing! 
And certainly better than denigrating my 
attempt to fight as best I can
the transgressions I have experienced.

> and now he expects the rest of the cryonics community to rush to
> his rescue?
> 
In the longrun we would all benefit from some sort of
mutual insurance among the cryonics companies.
In the standard contract I was working on I was
actually mandating that any long term client
set aside money for such a coinurance program.

I am down now, but I hope that a cryonic group
will see the long run value I have to offer
and will be willing to gamble
on that I will be up again.
If anyone will assist with my grand father now,
I can certainly assist with facility designs,
charters, health routines and other solutions
now and later.

>
If we really are to extend life, we need to
respect universal unalienable rights,
to life, liberty and the pursuit of property,
and emancipate the foreign born too,
It is no doubt in my mind that we would all be better
off the more countries that abolish their border patrols,
and open up for free travel and trade. 
But it was your choice as a nation to select the INS
rather than highly rational foreignborn innovators like myself.

I qualified for the general amnesty that was offered a few
years ago, but I came to the conclusion that I can do more
in liberty among equally free men and women, than in a 
protectionist police state, and that my best shot at
greatly extending my own life and the life of others, would be to
make a proud and cultivated stand against the 
visa-,passport and work permit requirments and the disgraceful 
concentration camps that now blemishes the United States.
I am still making such a stand, and mind my word:
That stand has to be made, and it has to be won 
before we are free to best extend our individual lives.
> 
Steven B Harris  repeats Bob Smarts 
misconcepts about the situation, and then agrees with these:

>      Answer: Yes, Bob, I think that about says it.  Some people have simply
> got to reinvent the wheel.  
Cryonics is not a working technology yet,
thus it is not a question of reinventing the wheel
but a question of inventing the wheel,
and if we don't try that, then we will never succeed!

I have bever heard of neither Bob Smart or Steven Harris before,
and based on their statements I doubt that they have 
seen the complete design for my Nederland facility or heard of
my attempt to design and build a nuclear warproof cryonic facility
that can physically survive a few hundred years,
or all the designs I provided Trans Time with a few years ago
for earth quake proof cryonic laboratories,
or my efforts to improve cryonic suspensions from outside the
United States, and to push the development of electrical freezers
that are large enough and cold enough, and my efforts to improve
contracts and legal protection for cryonics,
and whatever else I am working on.

> Alas, however, experience is a harsh
> schoolteacher, for she always presents the test first and the lesson later. 
> Experience also runs an expensive school, as Ben Franklin always noted, yet
> a fool will learn in no other.  
Many dangers you can prevent but some you have to face up to and fight!
Being from a a country where the government rules your life
from cradle to grave and from a country that is even more protectionistic
than the United States, I knew what obstacles a local government
and a border patrol can cause. 
I was aware of most of the obstacles I  am up against, before I
even started, and this is not something I am learning
in hind sight. It is however a deliberate battle that I have had to take
on in order to best extend my own life.
Of course I knew that the government could cause problems,
but I also knew that only by standing up:  trying to create value
and to point out that the government was threatening value creation
can I in the long run turn the population against the government
transgressions and get the liberty without which I can't implement
my most life extending ventures.

>  
>     When it comes to freezing people, it's been somewhat painful to see
> Bauge repeat most of the mistakes of the last 25 years of cryonics-- with
> money, with equipment, with families of the deceased, with the press, with
> the law, with trying to run a private operation-- 
Please be specific about what mistakes you are claiming I have made
so that I can rebut any errors and otherwise improve where you are right.

Yes there has been mistakes, no doubt about it,
but also keep in mind that this was the first cryonic suspension
from Norway, or from Northern Europe, and only the 3rd or so suspension
from outside the United States, and that many of the things I have tried
including building a sturdid facility in Colorado, has been attempts
at improving existing procedures. It is always easy in hindsight
to critize, and forget improvements that have come about
only because of what I did in the first place.

> all while steadfastly
> refusing to listen to the advice of people who've been doing it longer, and
> have developed better ways out of the mistakes we've made long ago.  
Wait a minute. you would be hard pressed to pinpoint a situation
where I have not been open minded and listened to input.
Please beaware that we do live in the real world here,
and that whatever the ideals, one is still limited by what one can afford.
If one were to abstain from trying to implement improvements
out of fear of setbacks, one would never succeed.
>  
>      But, as you point out, all this is more than just empathically
> painful, since what Bauge does may yet impact the rest of us directly too,
> like it or not, and unfair as that is.  
The fact is that I was in the process of building a sturdy,
nuclear war proof life extension center, that was set to offer
state of the art rejuvenation and cryonics routines,
and that this project is so far halted and unfinished because
of the United States Protectionistic policies and the 
rights violating medling by a local town administration,
Distorting the facts will not change the reality of what I was doing
nor in any way reduce the value of my efforts.

> If he were trying to re-invent
> skydiving (say) instead of cryonics (as some cryonicists have sometimes
> wished) he'd have about as much success, but he would also be much less
> dangerous to others.  
Are you aware that jews and Norwegians that resisted the Nazi onslought, 
therefore put other jews (and Norwegians) at risk? 
Well they did! but they were still right in standing up for
individual rights and human decency 
and the same can be said about my efforts!
Looking the other way while my cryonics venture is under attack 
or attacking me for being attacked, would be to
walk like lamb to the slaughter and would only make us sitting ducks!

> Socially, the inevitable end result with skydiving
> would be put down only to his own foolhardiness, too.  When it comes to
> freezing people for the "challenge" of it, however (as Bauge puts it), I'm
> afraid things won't be quite so clear.  
You quote me out of context: My motivation is that I want to
be frozen under ideal circumstances myself, and the only way to
accomplish that is to jump into the fray and try to improve
the available cryonic options. We will not succeed by not standing up
for our most life extending projects, but only by pushing
and defending these.
My best option is to pinpoint what projects would be highly
or the most life extending if respected, and then to call upon
others to respect liberty so that I can go ahead and complete
my most life extending projects.

> The press in this area still has
> difficulty distinguishing one lunatic from another.
Objection. Everything I have done has been highly rational under the
circumstances, and I don't see why you make such slurs.
By the way where are you? and if you come across any misrepresentations
or attacks on what I am doing please pass these on to me,
so that I can get a chance to set the record straight!.

Long life
Trygve

The situation is still very volatile,
but I am still alive and fighting.

-- 
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