X-Message-Number: 4114 From: Date: Fri, 31 Mar 1995 12:58:23 -0500 Subject: SCI. CRYONICS Minsky Minsky's excerpt (#4108) was mostly irrelevant for this audience, since most of us (I think) are materialists and reductionists (in a broad sense). He was mostly beating a dead horse; as far as I can tell, old-fashioned dualists are rare these days. But where he was relevant, I think he was off the mark, because he seems to think "consciousness" is just a matter of data processing. It seems self-evident to me (after many years of thought) that the ground of being--what separates life-as-we-know-it from robotics--is the capacity for FEELING or subjectivity. My definition of consciousness--admittedly a vague or first-approximation definition--is that it is the integration of feeling and computing. A "robot" (whether carbon-based or silicon-based or anything else) presumably might be able to inspect parts or aspects of itself with other parts or aspects, hence could be "conscious" of itself in Minsky's sense. That is not the question or the problem. The question is what aspect of anatomy/physiology gives rise to the subjective condition, pleasure/pain etc. (Of course Minsky is right that this fundamental question, among others, has been almost universally ignored until very recently.) It is also possible that feeling may turn out to be an easier problem than some of the others in brain physiology--but it remains by far the most important one. Understanding feeling has enormous implications for all of psychology and philosophy and for the world views of people generally. Finally, I think philosophers create many of their own problems by torturing language. An example is the "paradox" of the Liar and related pseudo-problems. I think I'll separate this into another posting. Let me just say here that I seem to go further than Minsky in rationalism/materialism; I do not believe that ANY areas of reality have (so far at least) been shown to be beyond scientific investigation and potential understanding. Robert Ettinger Rate This Message: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=4114