X-Message-Number: 4177
Date: Sun, 9 Apr 1995 10:24:39 -0700
From: John K Clark <>
Subject: SCI.CRYONICS The Soul and Information

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In #4171  Bruce Zimov <>   Wrote:

	       >In a material view of subjectivity, the neural  causes of
	       >subjectivity are a  pattern of parts
		
When I said that "the self circuit is not a materialistic
theory" it was a poor choice of words on my part. Although
perfectly true it's irrelevant because there is nothing wrong
with being a non materialistic theory. What I should have is
that , like the soul, the self circuit  is a non scientific
theory because there is no way, even in theory, to test it. 
I will admit however, that doesn't prove it's untrue, but I
wouldn't bet on it. In the informational view of subjectivity
the cause of subjectivity is the PATTERN of the parts.
		
	       >in the history of explanation, the non-material views  have
	       >ultimately always bit the dust in favor of the material views.
	       
I don't agree. Until Kepler proved them wrong, people thought
that the planets moved in the night sky the way they did because
they were fixed on a material crystal sphere that circled the
earth. Newton explained that they moved the way they do because
they are in a gravitational field. Some scientists criticized
Newton in his lifetime because his theory was non materialistic.
Today our explanation is even more abstract, the planets move
the way they do because space-time is warped in a way that forces them to. 
	    
	       >But, patterns are not material. In fact, they are more like 
	       >souls than instances are!  [...] the information view of        
	       >subjectivity is  more like the soul since in that view 
	       >subjectivity is NOT material, even if  it can be stored 
	       >materially.
		
There is some truth to what you say, it's one reason I believe
I'm on the right track. I think that information is as close as
you can get to the traditional concept of the soul and still
remain within the scientific method. Consider the similarities:
The soul is non material and so is information. 
It's difficult to pin down a unique physical position for the soul 
and the same is true for information. 
The soul is the essential, must have, part of consciousness, 
exactly the same situation for information. 
The soul is immortal and so, potentially, is information.
		
There are also important differences between the soul and information: 
The soul can't be duplicated but information can be. 
The soul is and will always remain  unfathomable, but information is
understandable, in fact, information is the ONLY thing that is understandable.
Information unambiguously exists, I don't think anyone would deny that, 
but even if the soul exists it will never be proven.
				    

	       >I have two LEGOs, each with six  protruding dots, and they are
	       >connected in a pattern where 4 of their 6  protruding dots      
	       >are linked. How would I upload these 2 LEGOS?
	       
You can't, if your talking about the actual atoms that make up
the LEGOS, you can't upload matter. If you talking about how
LEGOS operate then that's trivially easy ... for LEGOS. I can be
uploaded because I am not matter, I am the way matter operates.  
		 
		>Subjectivity ITSELF is an instance, NOT a pattern of parts, 
		>so you can copy  the pattern of causes and get another             
		>instance, but it is not apparent how  this helps personal 
		>survival at all.
		 
Then the John Clark and Bruce Zimov of one year ago are DEAD.
The pattern of parts in our bodies are similar to what they were
then but the parts themselves ( the atoms) are all different.
		 
	       >To survive, a particular subjectivity must extend ITS causal
	       >chain. 
	       
I see no reason that must be true. There are always many
different ways, including pure chance, that a complex system can
be made but if the resulting systems are identical then they
operate in exactly the same way. Atoms have no memory of how
they got into a particular state, they only know that they are
in a particular state. 
	       
Having said that, let's assume for the sake of argument that you're correct. 
Why isn't an upload of you part of your causal chain? 
		 

				   John K Clark           

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