X-Message-Number: 4204 From: (Brian Wowk) Newsgroups: sci.cryonics Subject: Re: Cyroprotective Proteins ? Date: 13 Apr 1995 17:24:35 GMT Message-ID: <3mjmoj$> References: <3mhbdg$> In <3mhbdg$> (Jim0123) writes: >Hate to interrupt the decidedly metaphysical trend of this group >(suggesting perhaps a deficit of *real* progress in cyronics?) but Sad, but true. >perhaps someone knows if there have been any credible experiments >involving some of the cyroprotective proteins and polysaccarides >found in arctic fishes and some small animals which hibernate thru >the winters essentially frozen ? The basic problem is that hibernation and high-sub-zero freezing involve issues much more complicated than just ice crystals. Biochemical reactions require a minimum activation energy to proceed. As organisms like us are cooled below normal body temperature, critical reaction pathways one-by- one shut off. The reactions that remain create metabolic imbalances that are unsustainable. The longest time a non-hibernating mammal (dog) has been maintained in a state of hypothermic arrest and still recovered is 6 hours at 4 degC. It is very difficult to viably maintain non-hibernating mammals near freezing for longer than this because their basic metabolism has not evolved to function at these temperatures. Ice crystals have nothing to do with it. The basic approach used by cryonics and transplant medicine for hypothermic storage is blood substitution. Blood is replaced by a special perfusate that is designed to minimize metabolic imbalances at low temperatures. The body or organ is then transported in circulatory arrest on ice to where it is needed. The tolerance of different organs to this process varies greatly. Kidneys and livers are good for about 72 hours, hearts maybe 10 hours, and skeletal muscle even less time. It is not unheard of for cryonics patients who are transported long distances on ice to cryonics facilities to arrive with muscles in rigor mortis, but kidneys that are still transplant-viable. As you can see, "hibernation" for non-hibernators is a complex problem. It is not likely to be solved by anything less than a major overhaul of our basic metabolism. The only practical form of biostasis today is low-sub-zero storage (i.e. bring everything to a complete stop). Doing this without cell damage is not as difficult as your post suggests. Certain mixtures of cryoprotectants can be made to vitrify (forming a non-injurious glass) instead of freezing (forming ice crystals). This process has been nearly perfected for kidneys, and the next target organ will be the brain. I think there is a good chance that reversible cryopreservation of the human brain will be achieved within the next ten years. In other words, we will have the ability to store and recover brains in a viable condition with CURRENT not future technology. Regarding your comments about cost, you should be aware that most people who make cryonics arrangments are middle-class, and pay for it with life insurance. Storing at higher temperatures (like -130'C... the highest temperature at which all chemistry stops) is more complex than simple -196'C liquid nitrogen storage, and only reduces costs if your storage facility is reasonably large. We are not quite at the point yet where -130'C storage can be justified on a cost-savings basis. I might add that *patient numbers* (economies of scale) will be the single most overriding factor in bringing down storage costs in years to come. The more patients you have, the larger your volume to surface area ratio will be, which is what really drives storage costs. Storage in Antartica (even if it was cold enough) will never be economically justifiable because the transport costs would exceed the capital cost of perpetual care in any secure cryonics facility with a reasonable economy of scale. Two trends will be apparent in cryonics in years to come. 1) Storage costs will come down due to economies of scale. 2) Up-front costs will go up due to more sophisticated procedures, like vitrification. For some procedures, like neuropreservation, we are already in a situation where up-front costs make up about 70% of the total cost. Even dramatic reductions in storage costs will therefore do little to improve the affordability of cryonics. What we may eventually see as a cheap alternative would be low-tech up-front procedures combined with inexpensive mass storage. But would the FDA permit it? Brian Wowk Director, CryoCare Foundation Rate This Message: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=4204