X-Message-Number: 4522
From:  (Thomas Donaldson)
Subject: Re: CryoNet #4508 - #4511
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 1995 20:07:38 -0700 (PDT)

Hi!

About "suicide", euthanasia, and cryonics:

For what it's worth, this is what I think (and as was mentioned, at one time
I sued unsuccessfully for the right to be suspended while alive).

I did this because I had a condition which might destroy my brain BEFORE the
current legal system would allow me to be declared dead. Other such conditions
exist: I met one lady, who had arranged for her suspension, and had decided to
give up eating specifically so that she could be suspended before a tumor 
in her brain grew enough to destroy her. My tumor began in my brain (an 
Astrocytoma Grade II). Hers resulted from a metastasis of a tumor which had 
spread all through her body including her brain.

Euthanasia, as set out in Australia or anywhere else that quasi-allows it, is
intended to kill. It becomes useful for cryonicists as a way to be suspended
before the disease that is slowly killing you goes far enough to do so; the
best way to understand why it is useful is to understand also, very clearly,
that we cryonicists have a very different test of when someone is or isn't 
"alive" than do all those other noncryonicists. To us, true death happens
when our (my, your, some other cryonicist's) brain has been so damaged that
no information about memories or any other personality trait remains. To them,
death happens when doctors cannot (read: choose not to, for common sense

reasons) revive you. The difference between these two definitions is 
fundamentalto everything cryonicists do.

Unfortunately, there ARE some diseases which can really kill you. Brain tumors,
Alzheimer's Disease, advanced Parkinson's disease, multiple strokes, and 
many other rarer conditions will destroy most of your brain --- while you 
may even continue to breathe and your heart continues to beat. Cryonicists

don't become invulnerable just because they set up arrangements to be 
suspended.The problem with these diseases, of course, is that YOU REMAIN ALIVE 
by the

test of "alive" used now by most doctors --- and probably by your relatives, 
too(if your relatives aren't cryonicists), EVEN IF your upper brain centers are
completely destroyed.

The way in which others have tried to deal with this situation, when they 
found themselves in it, was exactly the one taken by the lady I met. Starve
yourself to death. This does cause some damage, but it still allows for you 
to "die" (as seen by doctors and society outside cryonics) so that you can 
then be suspended with a reasonably intact brain. And since your brain remains
intact, so does the information it contains, and hence (in cryonics terms)
you remain alive.

Yes, some work will have to be done to deal with countries in which euthanasia
is allowed. The Australian laws are good so far as they go, but it's very
important that they allow a very quick start to suspension afterwards. Ideally,
the euthanasia and the suspension should be the same event (though seen very
differently by cryonicists and by standard law and medicine). I personally
think that these Australian laws mean that the Australian branches of US
cryonics societies should actually get help and advice on the issue of how to
deal with this situation. If, for instance, a doctor (after going through the
required procedures) can perform the euthanasia him/herself, then it may take
a bit of clarification to establish that the doctor who does this can be a 
member of a cryonic suspension team, all of whom are present at the time.
(That falls under the heading of administrative interpretation of the law). 

As for whether this will cause bad publicity and get cryonics abolished, 
I would say that a lot will depend on just how it's handled. In my own case,
one reason I was a good choice for a lawsuit was that I had been active in
cryonics for more than 10 years before my brain tumor was even discovered. 
No one could claim that I wanted to be frozen as a desperate last chance,
or that I had been defrauded. (This may be a lesson to those who are listen-
ing and haven't signed up for suspension because they don't think they need
it just now: it's one more way in which early signups put you in a far better
position when you DO need it). One reason to do what we can to help the 
Australian cryonicists is precisely that a miss-step here might cause a lot
of damage.

Big opportunities often come with corresponding risks. I hope that the 
cryonics community rises to this particular occasion. And I also think that
it means that we can't continue to think of Australia as just another 
backwater. You might find yourself going there a year from now, to be
suspended before your brain is destroyed.

		Best and long long life to all,

			Thomas Donaldson


Rate This Message: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=4522