X-Message-Number: 4600 Date: Sun, 2 Jul 1995 20:10:02 -0700 From: John K Clark <> Subject: SCI.CRYONICS Depressing Religion -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- First of all let me say to Mike that you are correct, Dawkins didn't give a very good answer to your question, it was true but incomplete. Don't hold that against him though, you must have caught him off guard. Even the best of us can have a bad day. In #4591 01 Jul 95 Mike Darwin <> Wrote: >Depression is not a good thing for survival. True, but I think clinical depression has more to do with chemistry and biology than memes. People don't get depressed because they have a gloomy philosophy, they have a gloomy philosophy because they are depressed. All my relatives are very religious yet I believe (but can not prove) that I am happier than any of them. Several have been hospitalized for depression but not me, never even came close. >If you read history you will see that it [religion] has often >meant the difference between victory and defeat, survival >and death. Victory and survival for the leaders perhaps, but death for the rank and file. If you can convince your soldiers that when they die in battle they will live happily, in heaven or paradise or Santa's workshop, for all of eternity, they will be better soldiers. >I think religion has been very valuable and, in fact, has a >VASTLY greater value than it does downsides. I think religion has been the most common motive for murder in human history. People feel justified in killing those who belong to a different franchise and believe in a slightly different form of nonsense. >This [The selfish Gene idea] is a pretty depressing view of >things and certainly begs the question of "What does it all *mean*?" Begs the question? Well, it's not like religion can answer these sort of BIG QUESTIONS. They claim they have answers, but all they can do is kick the problem upstairs, pretend it's solved, and then refuse to discuss it. Who mad me? God made me. Who made God? I don't want to talk about that. What's the purpose of life? To serve God. What's the purpose of God? I don't want to talk about that. If God did exist He would be asking himself the same BIG QUESTIONS we do , such as : Why have I always existed? and Why haven't I always NOT existed? It doesn't bother me that in an absolute sense the world has no purpose, because I don't think the question is even coherent, it's like asking "How long is a piece of string?". When talking about meaning and purpose you have to ask " purpose for who?". What is the purpose of a violin? To the manufacturer the purpose is to get a paycheck. To a drowning man it's purpose is to act as a life-preserver. To a musician it's purpose is to make music and to his tone deaf child it's purpose is to be used to be used as a club swat a bug . To a rock the violin has no purpose at all. Nothing means anything without an interpretation. This post doesn't mean anything, its just a bunch of squiggles, until you use an interpretation, in this case the rules of language. Change the interpretation and the meaning changes. As you say, this doesn't give much comfort to a mother holding her dead child in her arms, but I don't think anything could do that. I make no claim that the correct viewpoint can eliminate human grief, that's asking too much, after all, it's only philosophy. I don't want to learn how to tolerate death, I want to learn how to avoid death. >Thus, I believe that we (if we do not become extinct) are a >transitional form: imperfect and incomplete. I agree, and there is nothing depressing about that, it means this is NOT the best of all possible worlds and that means things can get better, a lot better. >Contrary to Dawkins, I do NOT find the idea liberating, >gratifying or otherwise reassuring that I exist only for >some 4-base pairs to keep on making copies of themselves. It's true that my genes think the only thing I'm good for is to help them reproduce and that is why they produced me, but now that I'm here I'm under no obligation to agree with them, and in fact, I don't. I have my own opinion about what is important and what is meaningful and what is fun, if my genes don't agree me that's just too bad for them. >He seemed to find this plenty enough reason to get up in >the morning! It works for me, certainly it beats getting up for the greater glory of God. >Fortunately, or unfortunately, depending upon your point of >view, the Universe doesn't give a damn what I (you, we) feel. Imagine for a movement that religious people are correct and a Christian God does exist. Here we have an all powerful demon addicted to flattery who can read your every thought and will torture you, not for a billion years, but for ETERNITY if you take one step out of line or break one of his many rules, and that includes thought crimes. To make maters worse you are not even sure exactly what all his rules are so you never know if you are going to be tortured. Now that is depressing! I'll take an indifferent universe over a sadistic one any day. I almost forgot to mention the most important thing of all, don't let them grind you down Mike, we need you! John K Clark -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.i iQCzAgUBL/dbbX03wfSpid95AQF0GgTwiMyaIda5aRZFRbFCvFDJBNwQ6ygtOEIW 4ErHkBfTEPPCJKxQMsmkOBRUrpI4Y7PWIHEKh/fUptX8r7z02T4c67R1tGOX+E/z j67FviW9c5kjKJ0RMe9z9Z2JIajfoi+Z+bSyhAD4mQJbTZZBOnci/02ZyK3g/q7l 43jH5ki4ZLFlGJRkGZRAm+ZBhfow8+U+tZGLIiMAILs0vV1UMqw= =GrPu -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- Rate This Message: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=4600