X-Message-Number: 4600
Date: Sun, 2 Jul 1995 20:10:02 -0700
From: John K Clark <>
Subject: SCI.CRYONICS Depressing Religion

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

First of all let me say to Mike that you are correct, Dawkins
didn't give a very good answer to your question, it was true but
incomplete. Don't hold that against him though, you must have
caught him off guard. Even the best of us can have a bad day.

In  #4591  01 Jul 95  Mike Darwin <>  Wrote: 

                >Depression is not a good thing for survival.

True, but I think clinical depression has more to do with
chemistry and biology than memes. People don't get depressed
because they have a gloomy philosophy, they have a gloomy
philosophy because they are depressed. All my relatives are very
religious yet I believe (but can not prove) that I am happier
than any of them. Several have been hospitalized for depression
but not me, never even came close.  

               >If you read history you will see that it [religion] has often 
               >meant the difference  between victory and defeat, survival
               >and death.

Victory and survival for the leaders perhaps, but death for the
rank and file. If you can convince your soldiers that when they
die in battle they will live happily, in heaven or paradise or
Santa's workshop, for all of eternity, they will be better soldiers.
              
              >I think religion has been very valuable and, in fact, has a
              >VASTLY greater  value than it does  downsides. 

I think religion has been the most common motive for murder in
human history. People feel justified in killing those who belong to a 
different franchise and believe in a slightly different form  of nonsense.  

           >This [The selfish Gene idea] is a pretty depressing view of 

           >things and certainly begs the question of "What does it all *mean*?"
           
Begs the question? Well, it's not like religion can answer these
sort of BIG QUESTIONS. They claim they have answers, but all they
can do is kick the problem upstairs, pretend it's solved, and
then refuse to discuss it. Who mad me? God made me. Who made God?
I don't want to talk about that. What's the purpose of life? To
serve God. What's the purpose of God? I don't want to talk about
that. If God did exist He would be asking himself the same BIG
QUESTIONS we do , such as : Why have I always existed? and Why
haven't I always NOT existed? 
 
It doesn't bother me that in an absolute sense the world has no
purpose, because  I don't think the question is even coherent,
it's like asking "How long is a piece of string?". When talking
about meaning and purpose you have to ask " purpose for who?".
What is the purpose of a violin? To the manufacturer the purpose
is to get a paycheck. To a drowning man it's purpose is to act as
a life-preserver. To a musician it's purpose is to make music and
to his tone deaf child it's purpose is to be used to be used as a
 club swat a bug . To a rock the violin has no purpose at all.
Nothing means anything  without an interpretation. This post
doesn't mean anything,  its just a bunch of squiggles, until you
use an interpretation, in this case the rules of language. Change
the interpretation and the meaning changes. 

As you say, this doesn't give much comfort to a mother holding
her dead child in her arms, but I don't think anything could do
that. I make no claim that the correct viewpoint can eliminate
human grief, that's asking too much, after all, it's only
philosophy. I don't want to learn how to tolerate death, I want
to learn how to avoid death.   

                >Thus, I believe that we (if we do not become extinct) are a
                >transitional form: imperfect and incomplete.

I agree, and there is nothing depressing about that, it means this is NOT the 
best of all possible worlds and that means things can get better, 
a lot better.  

                >Contrary to Dawkins, I do NOT find the idea liberating,
                >gratifying or otherwise reassuring that I exist only for 
                >some 4-base pairs to keep on making copies of themselves.

It's true that my genes think the only thing I'm good for is to
help them reproduce and that is why they  produced me, but now
that I'm here I'm under no obligation to agree with them, and in
fact, I don't. I have my own opinion about what is important and
what is meaningful and what is fun, if my genes don't agree me
that's just too bad for them.

                >He seemed to find this plenty enough reason to get up in
                >the  morning!

It works for me, certainly it beats getting up for the greater glory of God.

                >Fortunately, or unfortunately, depending upon your point of
                >view, the Universe doesn't give a damn what I (you, we) feel.

Imagine for a movement that religious people are correct and a
Christian God does exist. Here we have an all powerful demon
addicted to flattery  who can read your every thought and will
torture you, not for a billion years, but for ETERNITY if you
take one step out of line or break one of his many rules, and
that includes thought crimes. To make maters worse you are not
even sure exactly what all his rules are so you never know if you
are going to be tortured. Now that is depressing! I'll take an
indifferent universe over a sadistic one any day.

I almost forgot to mention the most important thing of all, don't let them 
grind you down Mike, we need you!


                                       John K Clark           

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.i

iQCzAgUBL/dbbX03wfSpid95AQF0GgTwiMyaIda5aRZFRbFCvFDJBNwQ6ygtOEIW
4ErHkBfTEPPCJKxQMsmkOBRUrpI4Y7PWIHEKh/fUptX8r7z02T4c67R1tGOX+E/z
j67FviW9c5kjKJ0RMe9z9Z2JIajfoi+Z+bSyhAD4mQJbTZZBOnci/02ZyK3g/q7l
43jH5ki4ZLFlGJRkGZRAm+ZBhfow8+U+tZGLIiMAILs0vV1UMqw=
=GrPu
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


Rate This Message: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=4600