X-Message-Number: 4672
From:  (Thomas Donaldson)
Subject: Re: CryoNet #4667
Date: Wed,  Jul 1995 22:11:18 -0700 (PDT)

Re: longevity of cryonics associations

Mr. Leitl's question is highly relevant, but his support for a claim that 
commercial companies only last a relatively short time should have lots of
caveats. Not only that, but I personally believe it is important to look at
institutions which are NOT commercial companies.

One major problem with commercial companies, if we want to seriously discuss
how long they last, is that, first, we look at a highly skewed sample if we
look at all those currently in business. The entire idea of an incorporated
company is no older than 200 years (with other roots further back). Not only
that, but some studies have shown that their lifespans follow a pattern
quite unlike those of living things: they have a high deathrate in the early
stages, followed by very great persistence afterwards. Furthermore, we are
living at a time in which many companies are being founded, new, all over
Europe, the Americas, and much of Asia. If we go back 200 years, we find a
very few incorporated associations anywhere ... not because of deathrates,
but because the legal idea of incorporation simply did not exist then.

The first roots of incorporation in the English-speaking world came with 
such things as the British East India Company. This was not a company in
our sense; instead, it was founded on a special charter from the British
government (then a much stronger monarchy than now). Does it still exist?
That depends on what "existence" means for a corporation. It turned into
a government for India, was taken over by the British government (for,
interestingly, not a very long time as history runs) and then finally 
became the present Indian and Pakistani (and Bengla Deshi) governments.
The major difference between the British East India company and current
corporations is that now, incorporation requires no more than a lawyer
and a (small) amount of money, while when it began it requires an ACT
by the British Parliament and the assent of the British King, who was
far from the puppet government figure the British monarch has become.

Many German companies came back after the war, others did not. Here
survival depended on many different factors, in West Germany at least.
Eugen Leitl might be much more informative if he were to simply look
at the history of Germany with an eye to corporate survival. Some changed
their names, of course, but I don't see how that really implies a 
failure to survive. If I recall rightly, Krupp is still a major German
industrial conglomerate.

If we go back far enough (before the notion of corporations existed)
then the only associations similar would be states (monarchies, usually)
and the Church (and somewhat later) churches with a plural. This gives us
very few numbers on which to base statistics, but it does seem clear that
many states have lasted several hundred years. Germany and Italy both
differ in that they only became unified relatively recently. As for 
Churches, their record of survival presently dwarfs anything else. They
may have lessons for us, too, even if we don't wish to become a religion 
even in the eyes of the law. (One reason for the Venturist Society, as I
understand it, is specifically to provide a religious cover if that became
necessary --- though at present I see no signs of its necesssity).

What does this tell us? Yes, it would be wise not to tie cryonics to
any one US state or even one country. And the more widespread our membership
becomes, the more havens will be available if one particular state or
nation tries to stop us. At the same time, the US (at least PRESENTLY) 
seems relatively stable in its attitude (or perhaps blindness) to cryonics.
It's not clear to me just what should be done about this now, other than
to try to cultivate cryonics in other countries too. If the situation 
were to change so that we would be seriously threatened HERE, then I 
would expect that things will have changed in many other countries, too:
either in our favor or against us. Where we might take our patients and
ourselves in such a case is hard to predict.

As for religions, I think they may have ideas for us in their organization,
but that is a long discussion. Perhaps later, when we can somehow discuss
the organization of cryonics societies in a context free of personalities.

			Best and long long life,

			Thomas Donaldson


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