X-Message-Number: 5187
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 1995 23:42:13 +0100 (MET)
From: Eugene Leitl <>
Subject: Moravec, Tipler, and Immortality

Having just run into German translation of Tipler's "Physics
of Immortality" I'd like to add some remarks to that ancient 
thread "Hans Moravec on Cryonics". 

Tipler is a physicist/cosmogonist of some renown who thinks he
can prove the existance of God aka the Omega Point by means of
physics. While his theory is sure different from metaphysics
since it is a brittle (provable or falsifyable) physical theory,
some of his assumptions seem to be questionable, if not faulty.

(He mentions Moravec to having independantly discovered 
essentially the same theory, that's why there's "Moravec"
in the subject line).

In short, he believes in God as the future convergence point
of human, transhuman of alien supercivilizations ("The God
Who Will Be"). His main point is that future is equally 
determining the present as is the past. By means of really 
spectacular physics, he proves that the Omega Point boundary 
condition imposes many constraints upon the possible presents,
thus ruling out many possibilities and making his theory
provable. (Apart from him prattling upon various philosphies/
religions and their (non)homology to his Omega Point theory
this is a highly readable book, btw.).

Now my main points of criticism are these:

- he interprets the Silence in the Skies (as confirmed by SETI)
  as the fact that the emergence of intelligent life is a highly
  improbable event.

  Contemporary science is of contrary oppinion, and the silence
  can be interpreted in terms of Vinge's singularity as well.

- he thinks intelligence will switch substrate to Higgs field
  at some unspecified future time

  imo, apart from Higgs bosons not being proven to exist yet (?),
  their faculty to function as intelligence maintaing substrate
  has not been shown yet.

- he supposes anybody alife will be reconstructed utilizing the
  circling information derived from emitted photons

  he himself points out that the questions of deteriorating 
  coherency and photon/matter interaction are crucial.

- he assumes the Omega Point in all his Glory and Omnipotence
  chooses to ressurrect anybody who has ever lived

  though he says Omega Point must be a Good Guy due to 
  cooperation emergent from Darwinian evolution and game theory:

  -- emerging of cooperation is nonlinear, so unprovable

  -- one might argue whether a human (or chimp or dog or..) can
     be considered a person by the Big Omega Boss: we do not
     consider bacteria/viruses persons, do we?

Finally, Moravec's regarding cryonics as pointless: I think a little
extra redundancy can never hurt, apart from the fascinating option
of being able to travel towards the Omega point in person, in fact to
_cause the Omega point to happen_.

Though this has been said before: a cryonicist can never lose, it seems.

-- Eugene

P.S. If it has not become clear: this is a great book, well worth
     reading. Moreover, it dwells upon the trashumanism point, which
     seems to receive little attention in cryonet. At least this 
     "Immortalist Society" thread seems to ignore the progress
     explosion.


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