X-Message-Number: 5459 From: (Thomas Donaldson) Subject: once more on Turing tests Date: Thu, 21 Dec 1995 11:28:27 -0800 (PST) Hi again! OK, so you decide to use Turing tests "in the broad sense". Your notion of Turing test then ceases to have the logical sharpness of the real Turing test. What it is supposed to mean becomes open to LOTS of interpretation. As for Hawking, he CAN manipulate his wheelchair and understand how to get to a window without running into anything. And once there, he can report the color of something both you and he can see. Just playing with words means just that: an inability to not only go to the window, but to report some new piece of information which a human being could. (And finally, of course, we know that Hawking is a human being because we see his picture and would recognize him). I am using Turing tests here not in the broad sense but in the precise one. You are quite right that those scientists who try to explain consciousness are dealing with a subject for which only one person in the universe of each of us can attest exists. And that has certainly given them problems. Since conscious- ness also has other senses, however, and those senses can certainly be tested, they have decided to continue their studies. In one way, such studies suffer from the same problem as all other science: we can never KNOW ABSOLUTELY that they are correct. Before Turing and before behaviorism, psychologists did studies with themselves as subjects, trying to analyze just how their perceptions worked, by doing tests on themselves. Tulving was one such, but not the only one. How would we know that they were correct? Because we would see that the same things would happen when we did the same tests on ourselves. You are right that we can never prove the existence of consciousness in anyone else; but if we simply assume it when conditions seem appropriate, then there are many other things we CAN prove on that assumption. Best and long long life, Thomas Rate This Message: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=5459