X-Message-Number: 5563
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 1996 11:25:15 -0800
From:  (Dwight G. Jones)
Subject: Re: CryoNet #5558 - #5559
References: <>

Robert Ettinger
> 
> Mr. Jones  speaks of value systems "loftier" than "human nature"--by which he
> appears to mean self interest--and wants to take a "much longer view."

No, self-interest is not loftier than human nature, they are the same in 
my estimation. Rather, I am contemplating a new mentality when you have 
made peace with life and your species, and the state of mind that this 
accomodation might engender (less quiet desperation).
> 
> Certainly we usually need to avoid very short term views, but it is easily
> seen that an extremely long term view is inappropriate also, since the
> distant future can only be dimly guessed. Correct decisions require
> sophisticated probability calculations, including (as mentioned) internal and
> external feedbacks. Fortunately, some of these calculations can be made
> quickly and almost automatically on the basis of experience and fuzzy logic;
> unfortunately, the problem is still formidable enough to be very unwelcome to
> most people, and beyond their present capabilities as individuals.

You overdramatize, and demand decisions that do not have to be made. We 
have been evolving as humans for three million years, and if we have to 
take a thousand years to study this, there's time (and room in the 
Universe). Our phenotypes now are essentially as they were 1000 years 
ago and they will be the same 1000 years hence. If we are to be 
displaced by androids, the species will be lost, period. 

Gerry Rubin said "Seize the time". What we have to realize here is what 
we are now is invaluable and enough and must be preserved. The robot 
crowd we gun down.  :-)
> 
> As for value systems "loftier" than self interest, there aren't any and
> cannot be (under any reasonable assumptions about the nature of reality). The
> only things that can possibly matter to you--directly--are those occurring in
> your own head; hence valid values can only be based on personal
> feel-good/feel-bad, as projected over time.

What a draconian viewpoint. Surely you can contemplate a pluralistic 
value system wherein you truly do value your brother as your keeper 
(especially when he is in no uncertain terms). You can look at 
sociobiology for instruction here, how altruism can actually work toward 
self interest. Much more interesting than what you outline.

 But an enormous task remains in
> sorting out the many (and often apparently conflcting) types of
> feel-good/feel-bad and their hierarchies, and complete success will require
> advances in the understanding of brain biology.

No, here is where a little solipsism can be useful. No third party 
opinions, nor understanding of brain biology is required. The Church of 
Man takes the view that "these are scenes from your Life, and they are 
important." No one is going to come along and understand your Life 
better than you do. In a pluralistic philosophy you can have a 
solipsistic view (as one component) within a larger co-operative model. 
> 
> If Mr. Jones only wants his DNA preserved, and would be satisfied with a new
> "instantiation" as a "clone" of himself--as his message seems to say--then he
> has made assumptions about the nature of identity and criteria of survival
> that are not warranted by available evidence.

What evidence? The Church of Man takes the view that your clone is you, 
if only because two pieces of chemistry with 6 billion identical parts 
(DNA) cannot be anything but identical. Remember, the human body can be 
viewed as a colony of different cell types, like jellyfish. Identity in 
more than one part is comprehensible, you can actually become a 
phenomenon rather than a unit. 

That is evidence, what evidence do you have that these idividuals are 
different? The key question: would nature and evolution regard them as 
different or as the same phenomenon in two iterations?
> 
> Of course, it goes without saying that many mindsets, irrespective of logic
> or evidence, can tend to lead to comfort and even happiness, and those who
> embrace them could be the lucky ones. But those who demand honesty, logic and
> evidence cannot take such routes.

Ignorance at any level is bliss. Those who demand honesty, logic and 
evidence would never take the route of rebuilding a Man from aged parts, 
when he can rise anew from his seed.

Dwight Jones
Church of Man


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