X-Message-Number: 5852 From: Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 13:27:42 -0500 Subject: Penrose & Russell Joe Strout (#5841) makes fun of Penrose's search for mysterious quantum phenomena to explain the alleged ability of people to do thinking of a type inaccessible to ordinary programmed computers--thinking that is "non-algorithmic." Penrose (and others) base their surmises, at least in part, on Goedel's theorems, which purport to show that, in any logical or mathematical system (of sufficient complexity), there are true statements which cannot be proven within the system. Mr. Strout's point was that this peculiarity does not depend on one thinker being organic and another inorganic; it merely depends on the self-referential quality of the proposition. However, if we look just at English-language versions or supposed analogs of Goedel-like theorems, the premise is wrong in the first place, so the problem does not arise. There are NOT any such true statements unprovable within the system. In Mr. Strout's example-- "Roger Penrose cannot consistently believe this proposition." --just as in some of the Russell "paradoxes," the key is to recognize that "this proposition" is without real content, without any root referent, and therefore is not properly a "proposition" at all. It is just another tiresome example of the ease with which the mind can be confused by language. Mathematicians stoutly maintain that there is a fundamental difference between the Goedel theorems and their apparent English-language analogs, and that the theroems are unassailable. We'll see. Robert Ettinger Rate This Message: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=5852