X-Message-Number: 6634 Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 02:56:01 -0400 (EDT) From: Brad <> Subject: CryoNet #6626 - #6630 >Date: Sun Jul 28 01:51:22 PDT 1996 >Subject: CryoNet #6626 - #6630 >From: CryoNet <> >To: >Sender: >Reply-To: > >CryoNet - Sun 28 Jul 1996 > > #6626: cryostat variants [Doug Skrecky] > #6627: Re: An Idea for cryogenics. [Brian Wowk] > #6628: Australia law [David Brandt-Erichsen] > #6629: re MelodieT [Mike Perry] > #6630: Reply to Mark Mugler [Brian Wowk] > >---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Message #6626 >Date: Sat, 27 Jul 1996 06:31:34 -0700 (PDT) >From: Doug Skrecky <> >Subject: cryostat variants > > In Message #6604 (Thomas Donaldson) wrote: > >preserve a head for centuries so long as we keep it at -150 deg C ... > What we will need is some engineering work to find out a better form of > STORAGE, too. I would say that this issue is really crucial to the cost > of vitrified storage; not only that, but some kind of passive system, > which maintains the right temperature WITHOUT continual power input, > very likely WOULD be patentable.< > > Water/ice will stay near 0 C till all the ice is melted. Perhaps a > liquid which freezes at around -150 would fit the bill. Freon 12 for > example freezes at -158, yet boils only at -29. For a cryostat > containing a mixture of solid/liquid freon 12 the temperature of -158 > would effectively preclude expensive boiloff. Liquid freon could be > drained periodically from the cryostat, refrozen and then added back > inside. > > Another possibility would be to use sorbitol or some other "solid" > cryoprotectant with a glass transition greater than -78 so that then > cold storage could use dry ice. > >---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Message #6627 >From: (Brian Wowk) >Newsgroups: sci.cryonics >Subject: Re: An Idea for cryogenics. >Date: 27 Jul 96 02:30:42 GMT >Message-ID: <> >References: <4t80kr$> > >In <4t80kr$> (Grommit) writes: > >>From what I do know about cryogenics, what kill's the person is the ice >>crystals bursting cells(correct?). At higher pressures(humans can stand pretty >>high pressures if they are pressurized slowly, rigth?) ice crystals don't form >>until a lower temperature. So why don't they pressurize the subject to be >>frozen and then lower them to a temperature low enough to preserve them but >>form ice. > > Very perceptive. This suggestion is made by newcomers only about >once a year, or so-- not quite frequent enough to justify including in >the cryonics FAQ. > > The short answer is that the pressures required are prohibitive >from an engineering standpoint, and fatal from a biological standpoint >(killing by protein denaturation instead of freezing). Current >approaches such as vitrification seek to avoid ice formation chemically >instead of barometrically. > > *************************************************************************** > Brian Wowk CryoCare Foundation 1-800-TOP-CARE > President Human Cryopreservation Services > http://www.cryocare.org/cryocare/ > --------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Message #6628 >Date: Sat, 27 Jul 1996 13:01:47 -0700 >From: David Brandt-Erichsen <> >Subject: Australia law > >The following news story on the Northern Territory court ruling was carried >by Reuters (July 24). It contains a few more details than the Associated >Press report posted earlier. > >---------- > >CANBERRA, Australia. An Australian provincial court Wednesday upheld the >world's first voluntary euthanasia laws, but the emotional battle over >assisted suicide is now set to go to the country's highest court. >Pro-euthanasia doctor Philip Nitschke, dubbed "Dr. Death" by critics, told >Reuters he hoped the decision would clear the way for terminally ill >patients to end their life. > >"We have got to have a better chance today than we did yesterday," he said >by telephone from Darwin, capital of the Northern Territory. > >The territory's Supreme Court ruled by two to one that the law was within >the territory parliament's power, rejecting a challenge by a coalition of >doctors, church and Aboriginal leaders. > >The coalition's spokesman, Dr. Chris Wake, told Reuters the group would now >take its challenge to Australia's High Court and was confident of victory. >"We have only run a quarter of our argument and we believe we can win in the >High Court," he said by telephone. > >Nitschke, who has several patients waiting to die, said he would immediately >renew his search for the two extra doctors needed to approve an assisted >suicide application. > >"Whether it translates into signatures is the question." > >The law, allowing terminally ill people to die by lethal injection or pills, >came into force July 1. But it has not yet been used, with specialist >doctors unwilling to approve applications in the face of the legal challenge >and separate legislative threats in the territory and national parliaments. > >Doctors have been warned they could face murder charges if they help a >patient die and the law is later overturned. > >"There must be some specialists out there who feel awfully bloody guilty," >Nitschke said. "We'll be asking them immediately where do they stand now?" > >One of Nitschke's patients, cancer-stricken 66-year-old taxi driver Max >Bell, drove a battered taxi thousands of miles across harsh desert earlier >this month in a bid to be the first to use the law. But he returned home two >weeks ago after failing to find two specialists to support his bid. > >"He's a real casualty of those who waited to the last minute (to challenge >the law)," Nitschke said. > >Wake said Wednesday's dissenting judgement in support of the challenge was >encouraging for the High Court bid, due to begin within weeks. The coalition >argues that the law breaches what it says is an underlying right to life in >the national constitution. > >The law has been condemned by Australia's religious, community and political >leaders, including Prime Minister John Howard, but is overwhelmingly popular >in opinion polls. > >Howard, elected in March partly on a platform of conservative family values, >has backed plans by a government politician to introduce his own bill in >parliament for Canberra to override the territory's legislation. > >---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Message #6629 >Date: Sat, 27 Jul 96 12:59:41 >From: Mike Perry <> >Subject: re MelodieT > >MelodieT, #6620, writes: > >>Could someone recommend reading >>material that would explain in detail cryonics? > >A good place to start, as Brian Wowk notes, is the Web and >specifically, CryoCare's Web site, which also has pointers >to other cryonics organizations. Alcor's Web site has useful >information too: http://www.alcor.org > >Three good references on cryonics are (1) *The Prospect of >Immortality* by Robert Ettinger (Doubleday, 1964, old but >still worth a read, and the book that largely started cryon- >ics); *Engines of Creation* by Eric Drexler (Doubleday, >1986, all about nanotechnology but with a chapter on >cryonics); and *Cryonics, Reaching for Tomorrow*, Al- >cor's reference work on cryonics. Two of these are now >available on the Web: > > >*Engines of Creation*: > >http://reality.sgi.com/whitaker/EnginesOfCreation/ > > >*Cryonics, Reaching for Tomorrow*: > >http://www.alcor.org/library.html > > >The other one, *The Prospect of Immortality*, is available >in many libraries and also can be purchased from Alcor, >along with other cryonics-related literature. > >>Also, does anyone know if any space agencies have done >>research on cryonics as a possible answer to extended >>space travel? > >I think a lot of talk has been expended on this possibility, >but very little action. Basically, until reversible suspended >animation is demonstrated, it seems unlikely that govern- >mental or other big budgets will be committed to its possi- >ble use in space travel. > >>What is the present law regarding the use of cryonics >>while still alive? Has it been ever done? > >Premortem suspensions would fall under "assisted suicide," >"euthanasia," or "aid-in-dying" as far as I am aware. (And >this will continue until someone is resuscitated from a >frozen state or evidence strong enough to convince bureau- >crats emerges that resuscitation is possible.) Presently there >are attempts, in various jurisdictions around the world, to >provide for aid-in-dying. (And in some places, e.g. Hol- >land, it is being practiced in technical violation of the law, >but the law is not enforced.) So far, no premortem suspen- >sions as such have occurred, as far as I am aware, and >probably none will until laws allowing them are more >firmly in place. > >Brian Wowk, #6621, writes to MelodieT: > >>I'm very sorry to hear that you and your husband are >>both ill. If it's any consolation, cryonics in its current >>state is still so crude and highly speculative that it's >>probably just as well that your last resources are being >>spent on medical care and comfort instead of cryonics. > >I certainly share the sympathies Brian expresses regarding >your and your husband's illness, Melodie, as I'm sure >others here do too. My feeling about cryonics is that, while >there are many uncertainties, it's worth a try, but so are >other forms of preservation, particularly if cryonic suspen- >sion is not possible, e.g. for financial reasons or because of >an accident that destroys the body before it can be frozen. > >For myself, I have a cell sample stored at my cryonics >organization (Alcor) with the understanding that, if I can't >be suspended, I want DNA from this sample used, along >with other surviving information, to construct a functioning >duplicate of me, as far as possible. I want missing informa- >tion to be "filled in" using educated guesswork, and not >just left missing. In this way, a complete individual should >result, not just a "tabula rasa" clone or someone suffering >severe amnesia. I feel that such a construction, done prop- >erly, would be "me" and not just a similar but different >individual, for reasons involving many-worlds physics. (I'd >be happy to discuss this further, but will stop now in the >interest of brevity, except to note that I think cryonics is >better, other factors being equal, but the alternative is not >negligible.) The DNA option was not difficult or expensive >to arrange, and I recommend it as a backup to more usual >cryonics arrangements, or as a first choice if more expen- >sive arrangements are not possible. > >I should say too, that there are other preservation possibili- >ties, intermediate in expense between DNA-plus-record >storage and cryonic suspension. One is high-quality chemi- >cal preservation. Of course, it is unknown at this point how >this would compare with cryonics--would memories in a >chemopreserved brain be inferable, for instance? (Would >they be inferable from a *frozen* brain? We still don't >know.) But there are techniques of chemical preservation >that are far better (for the brain especially, which is the >important organ to preserve) than what is used in conven- >tional funerary embalming. Another possibility is chemo- >preservation plus subfreezing, high-temperature storage, as >in permafrost, which should be cheaper, longterm, than >liquid nitrogen storage. > >Mostly, such possibilities have not had the attention that >has been given to cryonics, and that in turn is not as much >as we would like. This is a small movement and our re- >sources are limited. But at least I think there are things >almost anyone could do, that would favor that person's >survival after death, in some reasonable sense. Some of my >opinions are controversial, even within cryonics--people >must judge for themselves. > >Mike Perry > >http://www.alcor.org > >---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Message #6630 >From: Brian Wowk <> >Date: Sat, 27 Jul 1996 23:57:47 -0500 >Subject: Reply to Mark Mugler > > Yesterday on CryoNet, Mark Mugler asked some questions about >suggestions I have made for making Prometheus contributions part >of cryonics funding. In response, I sent the post below to the >Prometheus pledgors email list (including Paul Wakfer) for comments. > > Paul was just on his way out the door to head back to >California when he read my post and then phoned me about it. >Paul asked me to pass along his regret that he could not respond >personally today, but also said that he substantially agrees with >my thinking below. > >********************************************************************* > > My suggestion is that both individuals and cryonics organizations >be allowed to purchase Project shares, and then either hold them for >potential appreciation, or redeem them to the Project corporation in >exchange for products and services. > > If an individual wishes to contribute via a cryonics organization, >my suggestion is that the cryonics organization should then hold the >shares in their patient care fund (earmarked to the contributing individual >if possible). BUT THE SHARES SHOULD ONLY BE CONSIDERED *EXCESS FUNDING*, >of no particular monetary value, and not considered part of minimum funding >requirements. > > This addresses Mark's concern about member funding not depending >on the speculative nature of these shares. Once minimum funding >requirements in cryonics are met, all kinds of bizarre assets can be added >to cryonics arrangements (real estate, art collections, speculative biotech >shares, etc.) Project shares would just be another asset of this class. > > Finally, my original suggestion was that Project shares should >be redeemable for *greater than par value* (at least twice par value) >for corporation products/services. Otherwise an investment disincentive >is created because non-investors would be able to buy more corporation >products/services by simply putting their money in an interest-bearing >account for 10 years. > >---Brian Wowk > >Note: "Par value", for the purpose of this discussion, means the > original price that was paid for shares issued by the company. > >---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >End of CryoNet Digest >********************* > > Rate This Message: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=6634