X-Message-Number: 6964
Date: Sun, 22 Sep 96 18:50:21
From: Steve Bridge <>
Subject: Competition in research
To CryoNet
>From Steve Bridge, Alcor
September 22, 1996
To various messages about competition, cooperation, Prometheus Project,
Visser research, etc.
First, it seems as though this entire discussion has opened up several old
arguments about competition vs. cooperation -- old to some of us, new to
the people asking the questions today. For instance:
>Message #6950
>From: (TimeCat)
>Newsgroups: sci.cryonics
>Subject: I will give you money, but you must all agree to share!
>Date: 21 Sep 1996 00:50:48 GMT
[TimeCat writes about cooperation and sharing the technology:]
>Whoever does this proves that they have their subscribers best interests
>at heart, not their organization. Whoever doesn't, well, they prove the
>opposite.
>Even the simplest person (that's me) can see that there is little benefit
>in creating cryonic 'camps', given the limited amount of cryonic
>resources there are. I _do_ think that having multiple cryonics
>organizations is a good thing, but I think they should see themselves as
>members of a 'family', rather than seeing themselves as competitors.
>Cryonics is _not_ about getting someone to sign up with one organization,
>or another. It is about survival - the survival of the people at Alcor
>_and_ the survival of the people at Cryocare.
TimeCat, *ideally* I agree with you; practically, I don't. An ideal
world containing humans does not (and probably CANNOT) exist. We have to
work within our species, which evolution has made both hierarchical and
competitive. We live in tribes of various sorts, and we fight for
position as individuals. (I can beat up my brother; but if YOU beat up my
brother, we both work you over.)
That being the way humans work, we cryonicists are BOTH family and
competitors. If someone attacked cryonics in general, we would likely
band together to defend ourselves; but attacking each other is normal
human behavior. We can only learn better ways to keep the competitiveness
from destroying the entire field so that no one benefits. Some of the
ways humans have evolved to place bounds on the urge to compete involve
markets, corporations, capitalism, patents, and contracts. They are
loaded with red tape and aggravation and downright lies; but it's still
better than a spiked club in the head. Better to give up something
(technology) by getting something in return (money or something else of
value) than have it stolen outright, perhaps with your life being lost at
the same time.
I DO think that cryonicists will work out ways to share the Visser
technology or technology developed by the Prometheus Project or whatever
else comes along -- with contracts and knowledge trades and with profits
to the discoverers. And if we can control our personal urges to gnaw on
each others' throats, that might go a little bit smoother than it has in
the past couple of years. But don't expect that your pleas will somehow
turn cryonicists into some species other than human.
Competitiveness does not necessarily mean the different organizations
do not have the interests of their "subscribers" at heart. After all, all
of the current cryonic leaders are signed up for cryonic suspension
themselves and THEY want good suspensions, too. They also, being
intelligent, independent, and unstricken by lack of self-confidence,
believe THEY know the right way to do it -- and letting those other less
intelligent, manipulative bozos from the other side of track run things
would destroy all of the good work we have done, forcing our members to be
frozen by those *other* folks.
It's no good anyone protesting that; I have heard nearly every
cryonics leader for 20 years say the same thing about the others at some
point. Hell, *I* even think it, and I'm probably the most cooperative guy
you'll ever meet (hmmm, even that statement sounds competitive :-)). Give
yourself four years running a cryonics organization and you'll think it,
too.
One of the problems with your post at this time is that we are all
still doing the competition dance to see whose ideas will prevail, even
with the various cryonics organizations. The Prometheus Project has been
public a few months longer and has been developed into more of a plan. It
has been shaped by the fire of market forces (in the sense of who will
"buy" which ideas) and criticism and new concepts from the outside.
Planning for how the Visser technology will be developed is still in its
very early stages and has undergone only a little of this hammer and anvil
work.
I do agree with several people who have said that it was premature to
publicly ask for money for this work when we didn't know ourselves in
detail how we would use it. That's how competition works sometimes,
though. You throw out an idea and then suddenly realize that you hadn't
worked it out enough; so (if you're smart) you yank it back and work on it
some more to put it in a form that the market of ideas will better
support. Anyone remember "New Coke?"
Alcor, at least, is now rethinking its position on funding the Visser
work and will not be asking for funds from non-members again until we have
done much more planning. Our market learning has also revealed that we
will need to provide more information before such an appeal will be
successful. Good. We've learned something.
We are also rethinking several aspects of Alcor's entire fund-raising
mechanism. I hope to have an announcement on that later this week.
*****************************************
In response to: Message #6953
Subject: Visser Research and Disclosure
Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 10:29:10 -0400
From: "Perry E. Metzger" <>
>You, on the other hand, and the organizations you have contracted
>with, are telling us nothing about what you doing, and are expecting
>the public to fund research the nature of which is undisclosed. There
>is no rational excuse for this.
I wouldn't be too hard on Mrs. Visser for this. It is Alcor and CI
who have been pushing for the money to do cryonics-related research on her
technology. Mrs. Visser was just being supportive and her real interests
for the next several months are on other aspects of the technology. Her
work on funding the patent work she is doing on organ preservation and
other medical uses is being pursued in normal science and business
circles, not on CryoNet.
>Personally, I will not donate money to a pig in a poke. I am the sort
>of old fashioned guy who does not want to rely on the word of third
>parties and likes the idea of being able to reproduce the experiment
>himself, at least in theory, and see the opinions of a wide variety of
>scientists.
>
>This is not to say that I inherently disbelieve in your research. I
>see no reason to believe you are lying. I do see, however, reason for
>personal caution. As I said, I don't buy things blind. Disclose and
>then maybe I would donate money.
>Awaiting your publications...
As are we all, Perry, so we can talk more about the science and less
about the politics. I see no problem with you expecting to know more
before you wanted to donate or invest in something new. Many people said
the same about the Prometheus Project when Paul first announced it. I
hope we can provide a lot of that information over the next several
months.
*******
In response to: Message #6954
From: Peter Merel <>
Subject: Hooray for TimeCat! + An Alcor/CC Option?
Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 01:19:47 +1000 (EST)
>So I agree entirely with TimeCat: if you want my donation, forget
>patents, profiteering, and secrecy, and just post your methods and
>results for everyone's benefit. If you don't intend to do this, then you
>don't deserve a dime of donations - no matter whether your methods are
>real or just another parlour trick.
Then you probably won't be able to donate, Peter. Inventors do
deserve to make profits from their inventions. Organizations deserve the
same. If one doesn't protect one's inventions by patents, then someone
*else* may patent it and make a lot of money. You could even lose the
right to use your own invention. Your suggestion just isn't practical.
>So, for the record, having spent several years on this forum trying to
>size up the various correspondents, at this point I see Alcor and
>CryoCare as neck and neck in my estimation. I am most impressed with
>CC's corporate structures; I am likewise impressed with Alcor's size and
>the quality of its leadership. So I would like to ask Steve Bridge and
>Brian Wowk to do me a favour - and I think this may be a favour that
>others here would also appreciate:
>Could you make it possible for me to use a CC/Alcor combination? I
>really would see this as the best of the available choices. I know that
>there's a lot of politics in this, but isn't there some way that you
>could work it? It wouldn't harm either organisation, and in fact it
>might do both a lot of good.
While someday a changing cryonics environment might make such a thing
possible, it is not possible from Alcor's point of view now. And it has
much more to do with liability than politics, as much as those are also
involved. In fact, there IS the potential of harm for both organizations.
If one company should happen to do something illegal or actionable with
their half of the suspension, the liability could easily reflect back on
the other organization, possibly affecting other patients and personnel
unconnected with the action. Maybe these potential conflicts could be
worked out with careful contracts; but it will only happen at a time when
other events have allowed the two organizations' leadership to trust each
other more. (and I am *not* here referring to how much Brian Wowk and I
trust each other as individuals.)
A hard-edged contract is still not worth much if basic trust is
lacking.
***********************
In reply to: Message #6955
Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 12:47:14 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robin Helweg-Larsen <>
Subject: Re: Ventureville Sold
>I was sad to hear of VentureVille being sold. Perhaps it was too early
>to hope that a concentrated community of cryonicists could be formed in
>that way; but it is definitely something that we need to encourage to
>happen again.
This version of Ventureville was somewhat mis-thought. It was set
up as more or less a communal living situation, shared kitchen, etc. Most
cryonicists want more privacy than that, and a apartment house or motel
that could be converted into small apartments would probably be more
successful.
I agree with your reasoning, however; and I hope that as cryonics
grows, this seed will grow also.
Steve Bridge
Stephen Bridge, President ()
Alcor Life Extension Foundation
Non-profit cryonic suspension services since 1972.
7895 E. Acoma Dr., Suite 110, Scottsdale AZ 85260-6916
Phone (602) 922-9013 (800) 367-2228 FAX (602) 922-9027
for general requests
http://www.alcor.org
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