X-Message-Number: 7251 From: (Thomas Donaldson) Subject: Re: Values and science Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 11:31:33 -0800 (PST) Hi! I've read Ettinger's discussion of science with interest. One of the first problems I can see with it is that we'd then need a better notion of just what constitutes "honesty". The problem is that too many people will protest that they ARE being honest, even quite deluded people (go speak to those who believe that flying saucers come from aliens, or who believe in naturopathy, etc). But with values I feel confident that there is an even worse problem. Bob can write whatever he wants about scientifically founded values, and publish it, but it will become very clear that most people will simply ignore what he has to say. He may even be right, but they will still ignore it; and they will do the same if someone much more famous in the outside world did the same. Ultimately our values as individuals derive from our biological urges. That does not mean we will always do the right thing, even for our biology. It means that they control us. And if someone comes and says our values are wrong, we'll then go out and rationalize them. Sure, as intelligent people we do have some control over that, and can sometimes restrain ourselves for the sake of a future goal. But we will still rationalize... which put otherwise, means that we will devise our own set of ideas to show that our values are right for us. Such sets of ideas, if they obtain wide currency because the rationalizer is (say) a prominent person, are called morals and ethics. (If I just do it for myself, no). If honesty in this case comes down to working out what you REALLY want, then as I began, we need a much better definition of honesty. Best and long long life, Thomas Donaldson Rate This Message: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=7251