X-Message-Number: 7727
From: Brian Wowk <>
Date: Sat, 22 Feb 1997 00:56:47 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: Visser reminders (restatement)

	This is a restatement of my reply to Bob, written with
less emotionalism, and more elaboration.  Please disregard
the earlier post.

Bob Ettinger writes:

>Rat hearts: Regardless of shortcomings and inconsistency--and whether
>or not her procedures will prove useful for other and larger organs--a
>number of us saw five hearts (three in September and two on Jan. 31) beat
>(in varying degree) after a minute or so in liquid nitrogen, immersed
>or conceivably partially immersed. That is new.

	Without knowledge of the temperature the hearts were
really at, there's no basis for attributing newness or
significance to the result.  Goldfish can be (briefly) recovered
after immersion in LN2 for durations of similar magnitude.  This
goldfish observation is not intended to be pejorative; it is  
offered simply as an illustration of the pitfalls inherent in brief
immersion experiments.     

>I don't think any of her critics can do the
>same with their methods, or have claimed to be able to do so!

	Without long immersion or temperature monitoring, no one
knows what "the same" means. 

>AIDS: First, there WERE toxicity tests.

	Which would seem unnecessary given that the toxicities
of DMF are already well known.

>Second, there WERE reported objective
>indicia of benefit, such as dramatic reduction of viral count and
>dramatic improvement of T-cell count. Third, patient testimonials
>included verifiable observations such as disappearance of boils.

	This is not my field of expertise, but when the Visser
work was discussed in AIDS newsgroups it was noted that  
immune suppressants generally (such as prednisone or cyclosporin)
have this same paradoxical effect, but with no long-term benefit.

	In any case, without proper disclosure of what they have
done, the work is impossible to evaluate further.  This was
the same problem with their cryobiological work, and the root
cause of the misdirected resources, dashed hopes, and damaged
relationships they have wrought in cryonics.

Brian Wowk          CryoCare Foundation               1-800-TOP-CARE
President           Human Cryopreservation Services   

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