X-Message-Number: 8800
From: "Kevin Q. Brown" <>
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 01:37:10 -0500 (EST)
Subject: (fwd) Response to message #8791

Carlotta Pengelley asked me to forward the following message
to CryoNet.
    - Kevin Q. Brown

*************************************************************

> Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 12:15:38 -0800
> From: Carlotta Pengelley <>

Response to message #8791

Greetings, friends-

I have been off of the CryoNet list for awhile, having cancelled the
account I was subscribed to it on, and forgetting to re- subscribe on my
current e-mail account. However, my friend Kevin Brown was gracious
enough to pass along this post that appears to be concerning me. I would
like to take a few moments to respond to it.


>> Message #8791
>> Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 23:11:04 -0800
>> From: Hara Ra <>
>> Subject: Re: CryoNet #8780 - #8784
>> References: <>

>>I had an interesting experience a couple of years ago when I visited
>>CryoCare. The woman who picked me up at the airport works as a RN and
>>does some work for Mike Darwin. Of course I asked her if she were 
>>signed up and she vehemently replied NO!

Oh, dear- I had no idea that I came off that strong, I'm sorry that I
gave that impression..... and for the record I am a Licensed Vocational
Nurse, not an RN. That I DO make very clear to everyone when I inform
them that I am a nurse.

>>Her reason was that life is painful enough as it is, and the idea of
>>more of it was beyond comprehension.

Actually, I did not say it that way at all. I believe that I stated that
this life hasn't been so great yet, why would I want to do it again? My
comprehension is not at all as limited as that statement implies.

Most people who spend any time at all talking with me come to find that
I have a strange sense of humor, and that I firmly believe in the
validity of cryonics, and furthermore that I am a patient advocate- I
will give 110% to defending everyone's right to choose how the want to
preserve their way of life. 

I also stated to Mr. Ra that I was not opposed to my signing up for
cryonics, but that I would make sure that my children were signed up
first- as I believe that they are the future and would ultimately have
far more to offer in the future than I could.


>>I have spent many years exploring the depths of my psyche and 
>>undergoing experiences which may be called shamanic and other 
>>experiences having to do with my early childhood. My sense of many 
>>people is that deep inside the experience of life is painful and only 
>>a sense of duty and shame prevents many suicides. Since one can't kill 
>>oneself, the passive approach is just to live and then die and that's 
>>that.

Am I to assume that you are lumping me into that very general group? It
may be an accurate observation, but I assure you that I am a fighter. I
want to live as much as the rest of you- and maybe more. My not being
signed up with CryoCare at that time (or any other organization) was not
due to a desire to finish up this life and be done with it. (Not to say
that I have no shame but I have never felt suicide was due to a lack of
shame or a lack of a sense of duty.)

>>Nearly all books on psychology stress that many painful experiences 
>>lie buried within one's early childhood, and that fundamental 
>>attitudes about life are hidden there. Many if not all families are 
>>dysfunctional, and the attitude:

        "Life Sucks, and then You Die"

>>is very prevalent. The reason for this is that most childrearing
>>practices are not exactly nice to the child. If you want further
>>reading, look at Alice Miller's "For Your Own Good" subtitled "The
>>hidden tragedy of childhood".

Oh, God, the sins of the parent.........


>>I must stress that these attiudes are both DENIED and UNCONSCIOUS. No
>>amount of logical persuasion (ie, "nanotechnology will work", 
>>"reversible suspension is any day now") will work. Neither will 
>>socialization approaches ("all of your friends can be suspended too")
 >>work.

>>I am frankly at a loss on how to provide an approach which will work. 

As all people are different, so too will each approach needed to
"persuade" them. That is the first thing we ALL need to realize. I am
not a salesman, I am a nurse, a mother, a nurturer, a comforter. I will
never be able to "sell" anyone on any idea, I will only be able to guide
them once the decision is made and help them when they want to make a
choice. I could never and would never sell anyone on an idea that they
have not asked for. That does not mean it cannot be done, but that I am
not geared to that. But I do know that until an idea is more mainstream,
most people will not ask for it. They will feel no need for it. And
religion, or a "sense of duty or shame", doesn't have a lot to do with
it. And a lot of people in that category tend to hate salespeople,
too.... my own observation.

>>I have had the good fortune to persuade two people to sign up, and
>>eventually I think a third one will also. One is an extropian, the 
>>other two very close friends of many years. I don't know if my partner 
>>will, she may, but I think it will take several years.

Your future partner will be a very lucky person, indeed. If you are a
firm believer in cryonics and are already signed up, then chances are
some of your loved ones will sign up also. And I believe that since you
are already signed up, chances of you choosing as a life partner someone
who is against the procedure are very slim; therefore they too will
probably also opt for the procedure, if only by passive consent to
please you or the desire to spend another lifetime with you.

>>This is a real problem, and a very deep one. I think it is better to
>>find how to locate those inclined to cryonics, and this will still be
>>0.1% or less of the general population.

>>O----------------------------------O
>>|  Hara Ra <>  |
>>|  Box 8334  Santa Cruz, CA 95061  |
>>O----------------------------------O

At this I couldn't agree with you more.

Carlotta Pengelley

PS- as for the status of my signup- remember that things ALWAYS change
over time.... and there is a reason for non-disclosure sections on all
contracts- and I believe that all cryonics organizations have the clause
in their paperwork, no?

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