X-Message-Number: 9064 Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 20:22:07 -0500 From: "John P. Pietrzak" <> Subject: Re: The Future of Prometheus (and a critique of modern cryonics societies) References: <> Paul Wakfer wrote: > With your indulgence, I am initiating a discussion of the Prometheus > Project and its future [...] Before I say anything, I'd like to thank you, Paul, for your work up to now on the Prometheus project. This attempt to advance the state of the art in suspended animation is, more than anything else, what has drawn me into the world of cryonics. And, as context for my further remarks, let me underscore that statement. I've done quite a bit of reading lately, on the technology and the ideology and the philosophy of cryonic storage. Underneath it all, the arguments always seem to work their way down to: "This gives you a 'one in a million' (or other low number) chance of survival. But the alternative is certain death. Which would you choose?" Well, let me tell you, from what I can see, the odds of any modern day cryonaut thawing out successfully (at any time in the future) are pretty darn bad. So bad, in fact, that even though I agree completely that it's better than the alternative, I gotta say that that's not saying much. So here's my beef. There are what, four different major groups now active in the US performing cryonic suspension. They've learned medical techniques to optimize the task of cooling the body down, they own or contract for appropriate facilities to store the frozen body, they have financial structures to keep the whole show running. What are they doing to get those bodies out of those dewars? Nothing. The idea seems to be, "If we sit on our hands long enough, science will eventually advance to the point where it can get us out of this mess." I know, I'm overgeneralizing here, some research has been done. But with questions of "how can we get X to sign up" being thrown around on cryonet, I'd like to bring up the point that perhaps we shouldn't be trying to get anyone to sign up right now. _The_ problem with cryonics is getting people out of the deep freeze alive, and thats what should have precedence -- until that is done, I don't see the point to recruitment drives, particularly since _all_ of the money these people pay into the system (in all four groups, as far as I can tell) is spent directly on keeping them in storage, and none is directed towards getting them out. This is, to me, exactly the wrong way to go about things. Until you know how to successfully bring someone out of cold storage, you aren't going to know the best way to put them in. Which brings me back, after this seemingly endless diatribe, to the point I wanted to make: Paul's effort with Prometheus was what I've personally been searching for among the various cryonics societies: a group devoted to solving the problems of bringing significant multicellular creatures out of the liquid nitrogen alive, A.S.A.P. As to the future of Prometheus (and the FLLS) therefore, here is my desire. If, as has been stated, the work of the Prometheus project would simply end up duplicating what 21CM has already started, then I agree that Prometheus should be discontinued. But the FLLS (such as it currently exists) is something that can't be duplicated by 21CM, and if it has the resources to continue beyond the Prometheus project (it will hopefully exist at least long enough to complete the pilot project), I would like to see it put to the following use: We have four groups in this country already dedicated to putting people into cryonic storage. Due to fiscal and other constraints, they must concentrate pretty much all of their energies on that task. I would like to see whether we can't put together a society dedicated solely to the task of getting people out of cryonic storage. Through direct research when possible (as with the Prometheus project), or simply as a clearinghouse for pulling together current research and implementation data and providing a centralized area for communication between people working in cryonics and related fields. It could also serve as an "unbiased" (in as much as possible) guide to the current cryonics societies for the layman, and in the future perhaps work on promoting the use of cryonics technologies, for transplanting organs or for use with people with terminal disease. (This is pretty close to the ideals of the FLLS, I think.) Finally, lacking the overhead of a research lab or the maintenance of a large physical plant, it shouldn't be nearly as hard to support the efforts of such a group. ;) Perhaps it isn't possible for a charitable organization to compete for resources with a private corporation, but it certainly seems possible to me for a charitable organization to facilitate the distribution of data among researchers, such as currently exists. Such a group, maintaining a high profile and a conservative outlook, could help make suspended animation "respectable" enough for main-stream science to take another look at it. At any rate, that is what I would like to see: a society, similar to Alcor or Cryocare or whatever, but aiming its efforts directly at solving the problems of suspended animation, in whatever manner it can effect. I don't know if it's possible to find the resources to keep such a group running, but I personally have more than a "one in a million" chance of surviving at least four or five more decades, and I'd prefer to invest what time and resources I can spare for now in helping to solve the problems involved in perfecting suspended animation rather than simply supporting a group offering me a lottery ticket into the future. Just my opinion, pardon the vitriol. John Rate This Message: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=9064