X-Message-Number: 9163
From: Thomas Donaldson <>
Subject: Re: CryoNet #9154 - #9157
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 21:18:28 -0800 (PST)

To Joe Strout again:

I do not see the problem as nearly so well defined. First of all, it's all
very well to claim that we can build devices of "hard" materials which 
can change their connectivity, but another thing entirely when you start
seriously thinking how it might be done. Furthermore, you're not going to 
escape having to deal with biological materials, if only finding a way to
read out our memories from our (biological) brains. 

In terms of dealing with biological tissues and objects, surgeons do that
every day. And now we see work to do surgery on much smaller scales. The fact
that they behave differently than metals (say) simply means that we would
use different tools. 

And they have features which inert metals or other such materials lack:
appose the proper molecules and they will attach to one another, for instance.
Not only that, but any serious work on repairing nervous tissue will work 
WITH the neurons rather than simply trying to direct them physically by  
putting them where we want them (which would not work, of course). By that 
I mean that we would use various trophic substances to guide regrowth in the
proper directions, we would NOT simply try to move the axons to a new
place. Sure, if we BOTH moved the axons AND used trophic substances we'd
probably do even better. As I said in my last message, there is no problem
with using inorganic TOOLS to modify and repair brains (even nanosized
robots, for those who like that). But the tools would have to be designed 
for their purpose: screwdrivers, pliers, and soldering guns would not be
appropriate. That is not a criticism of biological materials: they are
different, so why shouldn't they need different tools?

For that matter, the ability to read memories from a damaged brain comes 
awfully close to an ability to repair it. Just think about that, a bit, in
comparison with what we can do now. 

I do not consider the fact that we don't yet understand just how to do such
repair to be very strong. The problem is that we don't understand how to
make a true brain (a computer which works like our brain) from ANY materials,
and just because we can make computers that does not mean that we can now
make brains. They are different enough that it does not follow: the simple
issue of growing new connections raises that problem. (Yes, our brains 
contain one or more neural nets, but they work differently from any of the
neural nets so far made as devices by computer engineers).

It even happens to be true that a lot of work is going on right now to
find out how to make brains regrow connections. There is a strong suggestion
that our brains even contain stem cells which can divide into new neurons
in the proper circumstances. Sure, that is not the whole of our problem
but it is still a beginning. 

Or is it that you just don't like squishy things? Or again, do you think
that an electronic brain would work differently from a biological one,
AND work better? It seems to me that before we draw such conclusions we
need at least one example of a real, advanced (not just capable of acts
a paramecium can do) electronic brain. Not just a theoretical construct,
but a real working object. Then we can start making REAL comparisons. Without
doing that the real brains we have will inevitably lose in comparison to 
the purely theoretical electronic brains some people think up: for no 
other reason than that imaginary constructs inevitably end up superior
to reality. Dreams are often so much better than reality.

As for your comparison with computers, it does seem a pity that you must
spend so much to get a new computer and move everything over. Wouldn't it
be nicer it you could just make the one you have grow into the latest 
model? Your main processor would increase in size but grow much smaller
new connections, your SIMMs would grow to hold more bits, and all this
while you worked on it, without your even having to think about the matter.
Just supply your computer with the needed feedstock and it does the rest.
What you really want, Joe, is an ORGANIC COMPUTER.

			Best and long long life,

				Thomas Donaldson

Rate This Message: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=9163