X-Message-Number: 9214 Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 03:17:06 -1000 From: L Hardy <> Subject: Re: CryoNet #9203 - #9207 References: <> > > > Message #9206 > From: Olaf Henny <> > Subject: Re: Message #9199 From L. Hardy > Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 20:32:13 -0800 > > Re: Message #9199 > Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 02:39:06 -1000 > From: L Hardy <> > > >Then tell me about the many hundreds of thousands of (over 400,000 in the USA alone) > >churches that don't pay taxes at all and have assets tied up perpetually. > Does the government laws affect these? Only if they are corporations... > > > A church like a corporation is a 'person' before the law. This depends on whether it is "corporate" or "noncorporate" in charter. Only a corporate church is a "person" as you have suggested. > As long as this church exists, this 'person' is alive and entitled Not true. The true statement would be, as long as there are individuals who are willing to operate the church it can remain active and entitled ... > to keep its assets and to the tax privileges churches enjoy. > The owners of the church, Who are the owners of the church? What, its not God? Its a man or men? > the clergy and the congregation change, but the church remains intact. without the body of people, the so called church is only paper. Its a sham...Of course this can happen with a corporate church, because it is an imposter church...apearing to be a true church. > I do not see where this impacts on maintaining our assets during cryopreservation. Once > we are preserved we are by present definition legally dead. Who cares what you are by peresent definition, if you had a promise to keep, what does it matter what other people say... An agreement is an agreement... or is it? > >> How could an individual leaving money to himself when he gets unfrozen write > >> it so that higher laws apply. > > >he doesn't write it after, but writes an instrument or contract before. We > are not talking about mans law here, mans laws don't apply... when you invoke Gods law. > > Since the church is a continuous entity, there is not a problem with succession. It is only continuous if there are people who believe in its precepts and are willing to be there for the benefit of the person suspended. > don't see where any "God's Law', if such a thing indeed exists, comes in. Probably because you don't understand what I mean when I say Gods Law. If there is no Gods Law then what's the church about, what is its basis for existence? How can the christian church edify and direct its people? Check out the universal Maxims of Law, in 1845 Bouviers Law Dictionary "Maximums are fundamental principles of Law", you will get an example of what I mean when I say Gods Law, all Maxims are based on it... > I don't see where any "God's Law', if such a > thing indeed exists, comes in. Gods law is stable, corporate law is not. > I understand, that some of the tax havens (like Antigua, Bahamas, > Belize Bermuda, Costa Rica or Liechtenstein) will allow trust in > perpetuity, There are many. They will also allow numbered bank savings accounts, debit accounts, who has to know that you died or were put into a preservation. The account could be in the name of a company, that could go on indefinate. There are so many options, if you only open your eyes. But all of the options require TRUST in someone... to manage them and possibly even be necessary to let you know (in your new state of being after reanimation) that the money or account exists. Unless you tatoo a message on the inside of your eyelids, for your eyes only... > which will not dissolve or be accessible to heirs > upon legal death of the owner. The problem as I see it is one of > identification. Any hard record of ID is subject to fraud over > such a long period and retention of any code in memory is > certainly less than guaranteed. There is no guarantee, espically if money is conserned. People are naturally greedy. So what about those who are holding our money that are putting us into cryosuspension. Whats to say that they don't pocket the money and put our body into a dumpster somewhere. It would be so easy to do, who checks the bodys inside the dooers to see that they aren't just a bunch of crumpled papers? Should we have faith in them? Good question... Allen H. > Message #9207 > Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 03:46:08 -0500 (EST) > From: Charles Splatt <> > Subject: Re: CryoNet #9199 - #9202 > > On Wed, 25 Feb 1998, L Hardy wrote: > > > Then tell me about the many hundreds of thousands of (over 400,000 in the USA alone) > > churches that don't pay taxes at all and have assets tied up perpetually. Does the > > government laws affect these? Only if they are corporations... > To qualify as a church for tax purposes, you must meet very specific IRS > guidelines (for example, you must hold regular services). This is true if you are a corporate church. And not true if you are a True church of God who has NO relationship with mans Government by any contract, corporate charter, license or the like. A True church does not ask for permission, nor is it a privilege to exist, it exists through its body of believers... it is not a person as Olaf says... Only a corporate (impostor) church is a "person" because it is an entity, to prove this, who does it give its tribute, and who is its master? Man on both accounts... It even has its own unique Numerical Mark... I haven't been talking about Corporate churches, but rather I am talking about Non-incorporated Churches and or trusts, etc. and that's a whole different ball game, they don't play by the same rules you have stated, in fact they do not even consider those rules, because God is their master not man. Of course, corporate churches have determined who they serve, by who they pay their tribute... > The IRS has a natural interest in preventing tax evasion Tax evasion is cheating, and if you want to talk about what is natural, taxes are not one of them... > by amateurs, as should be obvious. Why do you imagine you can circumvent the IRS so > easily? I have no need to curcumvent the IRS, I just avoid them, the supreme court has said that avoidance is legal for anyone to do. Isn't this what you are doing when you yourself have talked about using a Tax Haven. Or are you trying to hide something?Charles, you obliviously have no clue as to what "law" really is, or what I am talking about...you must think it is "rules and regulations". For your edification, I am not talking here about rules and regulations or circumventing the IRS, what you are talking about applies to corporate law and corporate churches, this is what you seem to have experience in. I am not expressing my views here to debate with you, or get into some kind of match with you regarding your superior intellect. Of course, I don't hold a candle to you in intellect. I know that your interest is not to know the truth about this subject, but to make me look like an idiot on this forum, which you tried on the Prometheus science forum also. No thanks.... > > he doesn't write it after, but writes an instrument or contract before. We are not > > talking about mans law here, mans laws don't apply... when you invoke Gods law. > > Please suggest precisely how "God's law" should be written into trust documents. If you really have an interest in this charles, write to me personally, and show me that you really want to know, so that I can be sure that I am not wasting my time. And you must first send me a church or trust document that you are creating so that I may have a point of reference and tell me what you wish to accomplish. Or you can discover on your own successes and error's the same way I have, the why's and why nots. Or you could ask your wise and all-knowing attorney... > Do I simply state "I hereby demand that this money should be held in a perpetual trust > and should be tax exempt, under God's law," and that takes care of it? What is this with you about taxes anyway, you must like to pay them, if this is so, do it...its no problem with me... don't badger me with your tax problems. > Can I avoid paying income taxes this way, too? You can avoid income taxes any way you want, I cannot advise you in this area, because I don't practice statute law, I am not a lawyer, you have not paid me any consideration or contracted me to give you my expert opinions or learned experiences. > Do *you* avoid paying taxes in this way? Why, would I discuss my legal tax avoidance tax strategies on an open forum, assuming I even have and interest in avoiding taxes. Nothing I am involved in at present is even remotely related to, or concerned with an interest in any tax avoidance purposes or plans. > Will the Prometheus Project (for which you serve as a lay attorney, as I understand it) > also avoid paying taxes using this cunning technique? Maybe cunning to you because you think from this space of thought, (if its not the way I would do it, then it must be ilegal or underhanded). Why woud it, PP is a Research Project, it would never pay taxes anyway, nor should it, why concern myself with with this issue. Additionally, I have no current involvement in the Prometheus Project any longer, other than being a supporter. I have never said or claimed to be a lay attorney, this is your label not mine, I am simply a student of Law and other things. > Should the people who have pledged money to the Prometheus Project feel confident that > your legal advice is based on actual experience and case law? It doesn't matter at this point, does it. I have never given "legal" advice of any kind, nor woud I ever, I must repeat I AM NOT AN ATTORNEY. I wouldn't say something unless it was based upon actual experience over an extended period of time (nearly 15 years actual experience). The pledger's agree with what Paul Wakfer and is doing, or they will not pledge, they are not my pledger's, they never have been. They don't have my views about suspended animation or they would have spoken up and supported the ideals of FLLS more wholeheartedly. As I see it, most of the Pledgers including yourself are really interested in how much money you can gain from your investment in the PP. This was and is not my direction regarding research in this field, I think the research should accomplished from pure intention of achieving the end goal. The current Prometheus Project vehicle is a 501(c)3 corporate non-profit, and has nothing to do with what I have been talking about, neither did FLLS. They are not entities that are of Gods Laws. You still haven't read the FLLS Trust Documents have you, or you would know this. You also aren't keeping up with the latest news about the PP structure, or you would know that Paul Wakfer is not using a Trust, Church or the like. Or maybe you just want to spar with me in public... (and the Charles Splatt vs. Hardy saga moves from Science forum to Cryonet... Whoopee) Stay tuned as Charles keeps it going... > Or are you just making stuff up as you go along? You can believe what you wish, I don't care...and you will regardless of what I say. But with this attitude you will never know...who would in their right mind enlighten you when all you are interested in is ridiculing them. > > Is there any way you can insure that your money will still be there? I think not. > Two states in the USA allow perpetual trusts. Almost any trusts can be made perpetual, even without it being perpetual, simply by an minute to continue before its termination date, if its purposes are not fulfilled by that time, and the corpus doesn't prevent it from doing so... so being perpetual is not really a problem anyway... Being perpetual is not the problem as I see it, it is having competent management that can stay on track for the duration...and having stable law to operate under. > Such documents have been written, and satisfy statutes, which I tend to have more faith > in than the supposed Law of God, which is presumably open to some interpretation and > debate. Good for you, I guess you have hundreds of years experience with the "Law" you profess so that you "know" that it will be stable over the duration. I think that most people are waking up to the fact that our military style government and its laws are not trustworthy in any way... As I see it, you know nothing about the Laws of God, if you do, then tell us all who are interested, what laws, customs and usage's I am talking about. I can understand that you don't have confidence in God, Oh Well. I can also understand that you probably don't believe that he exists, also Oh well. I didn't answer the post to preach about the Laws of God on this forum. Only to let some that were interested, know that there are options out there other than what you have stated. And that the Laws of the Land are superior Law that is very solid in our country and most all christian countries. It won't likely go away, and that we can avail our selves of it if we choose. > Also, of course, Liechtenstein will set up a perpetual trust that is free from most > forms of US taxation. There are many countries I could suggest (I know of 20 to 30) that could serve as a good Tax haven, if this is what you are looking for, personally I couldn't care less about taxes, this is not my concern or focus at all. My interest is just making sure that we have something there when we wake up from our sleep. So charles don't rant to me about taxes anymore, I haven't time or interest to go into this with you. > How do you know that Liechtenstein's bankers won't seize the money and spend it? Because > the country depends largely on the reputation of its banking system, for its survival. > Again, I would rather rely on this than the invocation of a deity. I am not suggesting to invoke a deity, just the superior law that is already set up for us to use, just most don't know about it, and obviously neither do you, so we cannot talk intelligibly about this subject. I am also glad that we don't have to be concerned about your future, you have it handled... Charles, enough said, our discussion is over as far as I am concerned... unless you have something edifying to say, that is constructive. Thank you... Allen H. Rate This Message: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=9214