X-Message-Number: 9430
From: Ettinger <>
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 11:27:40 EDT
Subject: CI procedures again



Platt 9417 2nd

Concerning Charles Platt's #9417: Here are further answers to his
questions/statements, not necessarily in the order given, following up my
previous post:

1. Just very briefly to repeat: Platt's main and repeated complaint, that CI
human procedure differs substantially from the sheep procedures resulting in
the published micrograms, is 100% wrong. The procedures are essentially the
same; see previous post.

2.  Concerning openness of procedure, Charles says CI has not provided
detailed documentation of results with individual patients. When I said CI has
been more open than others--both in our cryobiological work and in our
cryostat work--I meant in providing information about our procedures, as
compared with others. We have supplied this information to many people at many
times, and have never hidden it. We have not reported detailed results with
individual patients because there was nothing especially new or interesting to
report, and we try not to waste time and paper. When detailed reports will
serve a useful purpose, we will provide them. 

As to CryoCare's openness, there seems to be a bit of a contradiction. Yes,
they have published large amounts of data--but they (or BP/21 CM) still
apparently have many secrets requiring signing of a non-disclosure agreement
before they are released, if they are released at all. 

Charles asks why I don't offer to sign a non-disclosure agreement in order to
try to get the information. The answer is that, sure as a bear poops in the
woods, if I am provided information and there is a leak, I will be on the list
of suspects. No thanks; I'll wait for publication.

3. Charles asks in what way we got poor results ramping up glycerine, and what
new approaches we will try. To the former, the edema problems were much worse;
to the latter, this is still being investigated. 

4. Charles had asked why we don't drill burr holes in patients' skulls to
monitor edema. I said it wasn't necessary, because the brains don't swell, but
rather shrink a bit. He now says that Andy Zawacki said we do sometimes get
edema, and have to back off. This was a misunderstanding based on a telephone
conversation. (That is one of the reasons I prefer communication in writing.)
We occasionally get edema in the body, not the head, and it is in the washout
phase, not the perfusion phase. Therefore we occasionally have to terminate
body washout, and begin perfusion, earlier than usual.

5. Charles says our measurements (e.g. of glycerine concentration in effluent)
were on sheep heads and hence prove nothing about results with human patients;
and suggests that we cannot learn much just by visual external observation of
the patient.  

As to the former, certainly the sheep model is not ideal; but I believe CP
or/and 21 CM or/and Alcor have found results with humans reflect pretty well
results with dogs, and there are reasons to think the sheep model is at least
as good as the dog model. 

As to the latter, we have found with the sheep heads that visual external
observation does correlate well with observation of the brain through a window
cut in the skull. Fact, not conjecture.

Incidentally, some of us have problems with infliction of suffering on dogs or
other animals, even if the eventual goal is to save human life. Certainly this
is a gray area, but I want it on the record, again, that Cryonics Institute
does no experiments on live animals. When they are killed for our research, it
is either routinely at a slaughterhouse where it would have happened in any
event, or by euthanasia under the supervision of a veterinarian, and not on CI
premises in any case.

6. Platt says cracking "should" not occur above dry ice temperature. If he
means it does not or cannot occur, he is mistaken. Cracking can occur at any
sub-freezing temperature, depending on several variables, not all
controllable. Our slow cooling avoids cracking, as verified by independent

At least one more installment to follow as time permits.

Robert Ettinger
Cryonics Institute
Immortalist Society

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