X-Message-Number: 963 Date: 07 Jul 92 02:04:19 EDT From: Thomas Donaldson <> Subject: discussion of immortality Hi Ralph! I note your message about downplaying "immortality". While your intentions are certainly good, and I'm not into "outing" anyone, a simple discussion of life and its value quickly runs into the immortality question. I think its much harder to avoid than may seem, and hard to brush someone off when they come to see a relation. Just recently I've been looking at real estate with an agent (quite good) with whom I'm acquainted. Her husband presently has a serious cancer. She knows of my connection to cryonics and quite spontaneously asked me why we would want to live if we became old and decrepit, and afflicted with diseases such as cancer (which might result in terrible maiming, as you know). Of course to answer her (cross my heart, I did not start this conversation!!!) I had to discuss the reversibility of aging --- and from that point we fell into a discussion of immortality (and its problems, like what will we do if no one or very few people die, etc etc). Fundamentally, the current attitude to life is contradictory. Life (a bit of it, that is) is good, but too much is bad. And I've never found it at all easy to HONESTLY avoid that "i" word. I can't speak for others, but as for myself, I know how I would feel if someone starts to become evasive ... even it is in trying to avoid the "i" word. It hardly takes a lot of brains to see that if we can be frozen and revived whenever anything goes wrong with us, we're going to live a loooooooong time. As you can guess, whenever this comes up or looks like its about to, I have decided to be frank. Which means: yes, we believe that NO ONE SHOULD die, ever --- but of course we think that is a goal which we will never fully reach. And that is, of course, immortalism. And then I say that we differ also in our attitudes to this goal: yes, we know that many people think we are far too hubristic, but I would say, no, we want it for everyone, and aren't putting ourselves forward as the only candidates at all. Anyone can join us. (That is, I try to be direct not only in admitting to immortalism, but in specifically disagreeing with the tenets which make many people feel that such a desire is wrong). I can't honestly say just what cryonicists should ALL do, as a general policy. But I do think that the "i" word is impossible to avoid in any but the most superficial conversations about cryonics. Best Thomas Rate This Message: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=963