X-Message-Number: 9762 From: Ralph Merkle <> Subject: Repost from January 1993 Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 10:55:48 PDT The following repost is from January of 1993: -------------------------------------------------------------------- Comments On "The Effects of Cryopreservation on the Cat" Mike Darwin recently posted "The Effects of Cryopreservation on the Cat" by Michael Darwin, Jerry Leaf, and Hugh Hixon. This is "...a research paper which is now in the (hopefully) final stages of preparation for publication." Before discussing the paper by Darwin et. al., we need to discuss the general objectives of research in cryonics. Fundamentally, cryonics aims to prevent the terminally ill patient from dying when today's medical technology can't. We stabilize the patient's condition as best we can using today's technology, and then maintain the patient in a stable condition until future medical technology can revive them. The method used is to store the patient in liquid nitrogen. It is generally agreed that the condition of a person stored in liquid nitrogen is stable. However, the process of freezing inflicts damage. The question of interest, therefore, is whether future medical technology can revive the patient despite the damage inflicted by the freezing process, and despite any other disease or injury from which the patient might have suffered. The first question is whether any future technology could revive the frozen patient, even in principle. If revival is infeasible in principle, then the resources allocated for cryonic suspension might be better used for other activities (Bacchanalian orgies come to mind). This line of thought leads to the information theoretic criterion of death (discussed more extensively in "The Technical Feasibility of Cryonics," by Ralph C. Merkle, Medical Hypotheses, September 1992, 39, pages 6-16; and elsewhere). If information theoretic death has occurred then cryonics won't work. The hopes, dreams, memories, and personality of the person have been obliterated in the information theoretic sense and no future technology, regardless of how advanced, can recover them. They are gone. If, on the other hand, information theoretic death has not occurred then revival is feasible in principle. In this case, we must ask whether revival will prove feasible in practice given that it is feasible in principle. Until relatively recently most people would have said there's a big difference between "in principle" and "in practice." Research in molecular manufacturing, however, tells us that repair "in principle" and repair "in practice" will, at some point in the future, likely become almost indistinguishable. This point deserves further emphasis. The condition of a person frozen at the temperature of liquid nitrogen is quite stable. The recovery of the X, Y and Z coordinates of every atom in the frozen structure should in principle be feasible. With the advent of the STM and other scanning probe microscope techniques, it has become clear that the recovery of such detailed structural information (e.g., the coordinates of every atom) is possible. Molecular manufacturing should let us economically build large numbers of very small STM-like devices able to analyze frozen tissue in complete detail. Thus, by combining low-cost manufacturing with high-resolution imaging systems, we can recover essentially all the information about the structure that can in principle be recovered. By combining such analytical tools with systems able to change molecular structure in a general way, we will then have (metaphorically speaking) eyes with which to see and hands with which to heal. Even damage at the molecular level will then be susceptible to repair. As Feynman put it, "The problems of chemistry and biology can be greatly helped if our ability to see what we are doing, and to do things on an atomic level, is ultimately developed -- a development which I think cannot be avoided." Thus, the fundamental objective of today's cryonic suspensions is to maximize the likelihood of information theoretic survival. One of the major purposes of research in cryonics is to determine if current suspension methods prevent information theoretic death. Before considering the other purposes of research in cryonics, it is useful to ask what conclusions (if any) can be reached about information theoretic survival based on the paper by Darwin et. al. At the outset, I should say that I have not yet had an opportunity to examine the pictures that the paper is based on, and so must base my comments on the text and conversations with Mike. I have, however, examined some of the pictures produced by Fahy of rabbit brain (which are also relevant in the current discussion). I should also say quite clearly that I greatly appreciate the work and effort that went into this study, and feel that it makes a valuable contribution to our understanding of the effects of cryopreservation. The comparison that follows, illustrating the great power of future technologies in comparison with current technologies, should in no way be construed to mean that we should not vigorously pursue research on the effects of cryopreservation. It is intended as a caution against overinterpreting the experimental data that we obtain with today's admittedly imperfect methods. We are faced with a fundamental dilemma in trying to determine with today's technology whether future technologies will decide that information theoretic death has (or has not) taken place. In the future, we will have complete information about every molecule in the frozen structure. In the present study, we have information provided by light and transmission electron microscopy. Further, the information is about the structure after it has been thawed, fixed, and sectioned. Even under the best of conditions, the information available using transmission electron microscopy is grossly poorer than the information that will be available in the future. We learn only the electron density of the imaged section. If the section is 1 micron thick (plausible, although the actual section thickness used in the study was not specified) then resolution of detail much smaller than 0.1 microns (0.1 of the section thickness) is difficult. We will assume, however, that a resolution of one hundredth of the section thickness, 0.01 microns or 10 nanometers, was in fact achieved. Under these conditions a single pixel of our EM photograph will be available for every rectangular block that is one micron (or 1,000 nanometers) long by 10 nanometers by 10 nanometers. Assuming we are getting 10 bit grey scale data (again optimistic), this means we have 10 bits of information for a volume of 100,000 cubic nanometers. There are (very roughly) 100 atoms per cubic nanometer, so we have 10 bits for 10,000,000 atoms, or 1 bit for 1,000,000 atoms. While we might reasonably debate the number of bits of information that future systems will generate, it is reasonable to suppose that they will give us at least 1 bit per atom of raw information (again conservative), in the same way that EM photography gives us 10 bits per pixel of raw data. We thus have at least a factor of 1,000,000 less information about the frozen structure when we are looking at an EM photograph than will be available in the future. To put this a bit more graphically, if you are looking at a computer screen with 1,000 x 1,000 resolution (perhaps a 21" monitor) then our factor of 1,000,000 less information is the same as taking a complex scene portrayed on this 21" screen and crushing it into a single dot with an equivalent "screen size" of a 50th of an inch. The ability to discern biologically significant structure despite such rudimentary imaging methods is quite remarkable and speaks volumes about the great redundancy in such structures. The difference is actually more dramatic when we consider that, qualitatively, an EM section gives us no depth information (unless we use serial sections, a method not employed in the current study). Thus, we have only a fuzzy view of the projection of a single slab taken with a random orientation through a complex three dimensional structure after it has been subjected to warming, fixing, deglycerolization, and the mechanical insults of sectioning. While the paper did a good job of pointing out the inherent weaknesses in the methods used, it should also be pointed out that the method of fixation used for the control group (vascular perfusion in situ) was different from the method used to fix the experimental group (removal en bloc followed by immersion in a fixative-containing solution). Vascular perfusion in situ is superior and offers fewer opportunities to introduce artifacts. To quote Palay et. al. from "Fixation of Neural Tissues for Electron Microscopy by Perfusion with Solutions of Osmium Tetroxide:" "The difference between the devastated tissue resulting from immersion fixation and the coherent, intact tissue obtained by perfusion fixation is at once evident on even superficial examination." Thus, the introduction of artifacts because of this difference in protocol between the experimental and the control group cannot be excluded. It should also be remembered that the 3 molar glycerol used is less than the "Smith's Criterion," and is substantially less than the 5 to 6 molar glycerol used in today's suspensions. The ischemic cat ("FIGP" in the terminology of the paper) was subjected to a 24 hour ischemic interval. Under good conditions today (certainly not always achieved, but achieved sometimes) the ischemic interval can be held to a few minutes. In the case of the terminally ill patient who has elected to forego artificial methods of prolonging the dieing process, suspension can quite literally be started shortly after cessation of heartbeat at a point in time when the patient could in fact be revived by current methods. It is also clear that freezing to liquid nitrogen temperatures introduces macroscopic fractures as the temperature is reduced below the glass transition temperature (at about 130 Kelvins) to the 77 Kelvins of liquid nitrogen. The paper also suggests that smaller fractures exist. Fractures created at or below the glass transistion temperature result in little or no loss of significant structural information. From an information theoretic point of view, provided that the tissue remains frozen both prior to and during analysis, the presence of fractures is not a major concern and is unlikely to cause information theoretic death. Upon rewarming, however, such fractures will clearly contribute to artifacts and result in loss of cellular contents and structure. Again, the paper correctly points out this mechanism for the introduction of artifacts, and proposes further studies which freeze to the glass transition temperature and not below to eliminate this source of error. It would also be most advisable for a future revision of the paper to state clearly that future analysis on the frozen structure is anticipated. Attempting to infer the correct structure after thawing significantly overstates the problem. The paper clearly establishes that gross macroscopic fractures are present. As mentioned earlier, fractures that occur at or below the glass transition temperature are unlikely to cause significant loss of structural information (though they are likely to preclude revival by any technology short of a medical technology that fully utilizes a mature nanotechnology). Unless one is eager to be revived using primitive or intermediate technologies (which might be able to cure most, though not all, injuries) the presence of fractures is of little direct concern. Two secondary concerns are (a) the greater deterioration that would occur if a (hopefully unlikely) thaw-refreeze event were to occur and (b) the negative appeal of fracture damage to many people. Should storage at the glass transition temperature become available it would be marginally preferable, but only if it were certain that it was as reliable as the current highly reliable method (e.g., pouring liquid nitrogen into a large dewar once every few weeks). Blockage of the circulatory system in the ischemic group is of serious concern. Long ischemic intervals are sometimes unavoidable in current suspensions, particularly given the poor social and legal environment. While blockages in the central nervous system created "grossly visible infarcted areas..." "...these were relatively few" and generally "no larger than 2 mm to 3 mm in diameter..." This essentially means that the areas which did not receive cryoprotection were subjected to a straight freeze. While I would suspect that survival following a straight freeze is likely, there is insufficient data at the present time to support such a conclusion with confidence. In the non-ischemic group, dehydration increased the difficulty of identifying structures. As discussed previously, future methods should have no difficulty in identifying structures that are obscure today. Irregularly shaped cavities were present, presumably formed during freezing by the growth of blocks of ice. The slow growth of ice during freezing is likely to cause compression of tissue. Compression is of little concern from an information theoretic point of view. More significant damage (e.g., tears, rips, or microfractures) were also present. Given the evidence in other systems that substantial ice formation is compatible with functional recovery, it is likely that either (a) the observed damage is compatible with functional recovery, or (b) it occurred after most of the water had frozen (and presumably after most of the damage caused by freezing had occurred). In either case, information theoretic loss should not be great. The presence of tears or rips are also seen in the freeze substituted preparations of rabbit brain prepared by Fahy. In that case, the tears appeared to be "clean" with matching surfaces, making hypothesis (b) more likely. The presence of unidentified "organized debris" in the spaces presumably created by ice during the freezing process might have occurred either during freezing or thawing. The hypothesis that the debris was moved to the space during freezing is complicated by the observation that the space was, at that time, occupied by ice. After thawing, the volume occupied by ice would become a small pool of water. Anything which broke free from the wall or lining of such a pool would then drift freely in the pool, thus creating debris. An attractive and simple hypthesis for the formation of the debris during thawing is available, while hypotheses for the formation of debris during freezing face significant difficulties. The increasingly dehydrated and confined regions between the blocks of ice formed during freezing should make movement of any structure of significant size quite difficult. While there might be some concern that the currents created during freezing will result in turbulent flow, this appears quite unlikely. [The following discussion has been revised and corrected from the original post] The approximate criterion for the onset of turbulence in a liquid volume with characteristic size r is that the Reynolds number ~rdv/n exceed a few thousand, where d is the density of the liquid, v the velocity of the flow, and n the viscosity. The characteristic dimensions in a cell are about a micron, the density is roughly a gram per cubic centimeter (or 1,000 kilograms/cubic meter), the velocity is probably much less than a meter per second (and probably much less than a micron per second), and the viscosity of water at room temperature is about 0.01 poise (or 0.001 newton-second/meter^2) (viscosity increases both with decreasing temperature and with an increasing concentration of glycerol, so 0.01 is conservative). This produces a Reynolds number less than 1. As the approximate criterion for the onset of turbulent flow is a Reynolds number of a few thousand or more, this implies that turbulent flow is implausible. When we take into account the fact that the viscosity of tissue is larger than the viscosity of water (assuming that we can apply "viscosity," in an approximate way, to a structure as heterogenous as tissue), that the tissue is loaded with glycerol (which has a higher viscosity than water), that the whole system has been chilled to some low temperature (which also increases viscosity) and that the velocity of flow will typically be substantially less than a meter per second, then we conclude that the actual Reynolds number will be significantly smaller than 1. This reinforces the basic conclusion. The "Encyclopedia of Physics" says "Blood flow in capillaries is laminar, but water flow in household pipes is turbulent unless the flow is about that allowed by a leaky faucet or less." Another concern is that two small pieces of tissue, originally adjacent, might be subjected to differential forces that would cause one to move past the other for some distance. The examples that have on occasion been used by Mike Darwin are boulders moved by glaciers or bits of debris moved by the formation of ice on window panes. In both these cases, water is converted almost completely into ice. In the case of a cryonic suspension in the presence of even moderate amounts of cryoprotectant, freezing is incomplete and the result is more similar to slush than ice. In addition, in both the examples cited there was a rigid surface which provided an attachment point for the ice. The idea that slush might create a differential force on two adjacent points of tissue otherwise suspended in solution is more difficult to envision. The damage to the axons of myelinated nerve cells, secondary to a failure of the cryprotectant to penetrate the myelination (many layers of cell membranes wrapped tightly around the axon) is very plausible. The function of a myelinated axon, however, is to carry information (much like a wire). Complete obliteration of the axon, analagous to damage to a wire, will result in little or no information loss if the myelin sheath (somewhat like the insulation around a wire) is still present. Myelinated axons are relatively large, so even substantial damage to the axon would not obscure or obliterate the pathway. Turning to the ischemic group, we find that axons in myelinated tissue were sometimes sufficiently damaged that "nothing but debris remained." Even if the axonal debris were to prove unidentifiable, the course of the neuron would still not be obscured. As discussed earlier, however, the application of future analytical tools will almost certainly resolve the nature of "unidentified" EM images. In summary: the available evidence, though clearly incomplete, tends to support the idea that information theoretic survival is likely even when today's rather primitive suspension methods are used. This should not be taken as a reason for discontinuing or ignoring research in this area. Even a moderate risk of dying is unacceptable and should be reduced. A more pressing motivation for research has little if anything to do with information theoretic survival per se. The most serious risks to survival stem from the more or less complete failure of the medical community to either understand or support cryonics. This failure leads directly to preventable delays in initiating suspensions, inadequate support for suspensions if they are tolerated, etc. The single most effective method of decreasing the risk of death would be to gain even a moderate level of acceptance from the mainstream medical community. To gain such acceptance will require a body of research which supports the idea that suspension protocols do in fact provide a good chance of survival. For various reasons it seems likely that such research will have to provide almost conclusive evidence that cryonics is likely to work, despite the obvious disadvantages of requiring "proof" that cryonics works before using it. The idea that freezing a person is a "risky" course of action while cremation and burial alive are "conservative" is quite absurd, but also deeply entrenched. Thus, along with information theoretic survival, the second main objective of research is the fuzzier one of gaining general acceptance by the medical community. Therefore, besides understanding current suspension protocols and improving future protocols measured against the criterion of information theoretic survival, we must also understand and improve suspension protocols measured against the (somewhat fuzzy) criterion used by the mainstream medical community. While it is more difficult to specify exactly what will be needed to satisfy this second criterion, the two obvious objectives are (1) demonstrate reversible cryopreservation of a mammalian brain, e.g., freeze and thaw the brain of an animal and show functional recovery for at least a short period of time following thawing; or (2) demonstrate that suspension techniques, while they do not preserve function, provide good preservation of the structures that are crucial to the correct functioning of the human brain and memory, e.g., get pictures (either from light or electron microscopy) that show good preservation of structure and ultrastructure. There is much work to be done to develop this body of research, and all efforts in this direction should be encouraged. Rate This Message: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=9762